Can someone explain how you are supposed to get Russia to leave? Sanctions didn’t work, lethal aid didn’t work, F-16s didn’t work, and striking Russia itself isn’t either.
You can argue for the war to continue I suppose, but Ukraine isn’t winning and I’m not seeing anything here that would change that fact.
So you believe there is some magical weapon “X”, when given to Ukraine, will make Russia leave? There is one, it’s nuclear bomb lol. Other than that, it’s not a specific weapon type that has to be provided, but a steady flow of a range of weapons.
The point I’m making is that they are receiving the weapons the US and Europe can make/spare, and they are still losing on the battlefield. If negotiating is not the way to go (as the meme implies) then what’s the way to victory? As it’s going, every man in Ukraine will die and they’ll still lose.
If Russia is winning the war of attrition, why did they bring North Korea in?
The evidence for that is tenuous at best.
“Every man” will not die, because they intentionally not mobilising the young men. They also did hold for several months completely by themselves while West was scared and only talked about sending diapers & bandage. They also survived when US stopped their aid completely for 6 month. It’s been 3 years since the hold against a supposedly “2nd army in the world”, so they are definitely not losing. They did an incredibly well job given their resources, if they ask for more, who we are to decide for them?
They did an incredibly well job but are still losing the war and territory because Russia has more meat to throw on the battlefield and a bigger economy.
Dragging the war with foreign aid is not providing any resolution, it’s making the EU look as weak headless chicken who can’t come up with a concrete plan to stop a war on its doorstep.
Can someone explain how you are supposed to get Russia to leave? Sanctions didn’t work, lethal aid didn’t work, F-16s didn’t work, and striking Russia itself isn’t either.
These things haven’t won the war, but they most definitely are working. Russia’s economy is crippled, their military is running out of old equipment to cannibalize, and they lack the capability to produce the kinds of advanced military equipment they need. They’ve been throwing bodies into the meat grinder trying to overwhelm Ukraine, but despite the high cost they are making very little progress. This is not a great long term strategy, but it’s the one Russia has been stuck with.
You can argue for the war to continue I suppose, but Ukraine isn’t winning and I’m not seeing anything here that would change that fact.
But what’s the alternative? Right now Ukraine can only fight or surrender. While they fight, they can try to negotiate a peace deal, but so far the only deals Putin and Trump seem willing to consider are nearly indistinguishable from surrender. Give Russia everything they want, give up on everything you want, stop the fighting for now but put nothing in place to ensure that Russia won’t just rearm and invade again later.
There’s no evidence that Russia is going to lose steam economically or on the battlefield any time soon. Continuing to fight a losing war will only make any final deal between the US, Russia and Ukraine worse for the latter. There’s a reason the 2022 treaty that was proposed looks unrealistic today, and whatever deal they make now will be much better than when they finally run out of men in the Ukrainian army.
With the situation as it stands, negotiating is the best way out if you actually care about Ukraine. If you just want to weaken Russia then sure, fight to the last ukrainian.
https://www.russiamatters.org/blog/russias-economy-collapsing
That’s weird considering every single thing I’ve read about Russia’s economy recently has been that it’s going to collapse soon.
Edit: not a fascist
A lot of news about this conflict has been about what Ukraine would like to be true, rather than the facts.
There’s no evidence
There’s no evidence period about anything that’s not propaganda right now. Either side could be days away from total collapse without any of us knowing it.
True, but there are a few things we can glean through the war propaganda. The fact that Ukraine is outgunned to this day on the battlefield isn’t some big state secret.
If Russia withdrew their troops, there would be peace immediately.
If Ukraine withdrew their troops, Ukraine would be no more - and there’s no indication Russia would stop there.
If Russia withdrew their troops, there would be peace immediately
That’s technically true. However, Russia uses military force in its sphere of influence for a reason, not solely because Putin bad (which he is, I’m a commie and Putin is fascist-adjacent at best).
Russia, like all big capitalist countries, wants to secure a sphere of influence in which it can do easy trade, influence the politics, and generally have support from these countries. The US does this for example with western Europe through NATO, and with less diplomatic methods by supporting coups and invading other countries. China does this through economic trade and through massive investment projects. Russia is in a weak position internationally, barely recovered economically from the dismantling of the USSR, and it’s surrounded by former soviet republics very much in a similar plane (barely economically recovered from the 90s crisis as a consequence of the dismantling of the USSR).
These post-soviet republics, such as Ukraine or Georgia, adopted capitalism (as Russia did) in a very quick and disorderly fashion, and the resulting oligarchs and capitalist owners ended up fumbled in a mix of pro-russian and pro-european/US positions.
The EU and the USA both exert pressure on these countries to try and bring them to their side. Being economically and politically stronger, they can use trade, diplomacy, intelligence and economic means to alienate these countries front the Russian sphere of influence. Russia, in a more precarious and weaker economic and political position, simply doesn’t have the means to maintain the diplomatic, economic and intelligence means to maintain these countries aligned to itself.
The war in Ukraine, much as the interference in Georgian and Romanian elections by the EU, mustn’t be understood as a struggle between freedom and oppression. It’s sadly just a struggle between two capitalist empires, namely Russia and US/EU, fighting for the control of smaller countries that they want aligned to themselves.
Once Russia doesn’t have the means to economically, diplomatically and through intelligence, to influence its former sphere of influence into staying by its side, the only option left is the military route. The US and the EU know this, and they keep trying to mess with Russia’s sphere of influence for gains to their empires. The reality is that there is no good side and no bad side: it’s just struggle between opposing empires.
So yes, technically if Russia withdrew its troops, there would be peace. But this peace would mean that firstly the surrounding regions around Russia, and Russia itself, would become colonies and vassal states of the western world. It wouldn’t mean “freedom” for Ukraine, as we can see by the exploitative contract for the minerals of Ukraine that the US offers. If you think the EU will offer something substantially less exploitative towards Ukrainians, you’re wrong.
Ukraine, sad as it is, as long as it remains a state between empires, will suffer the effects of both. And only socialism in Europe and Russia can offer a meaningful response to this.
And only socialism in Europe and Russia can offer a meaningful response to this.
I mean maybe, but that’s utopian given that all socialism efforts so far where actually authoritan regimes using socialism as a label. We don’t know whether it’d help, we have exactly zero data points.
Mental gymnastics. Killing innocent people mercilessly is a problem, stop being an insane apologist for slaughter. Peace is peace.
OK, please tell me how the NATO block is any better in this regard, haven’t you literally just been witness to the most open genocide in history and NOBODY in the west did anything to stop it?
- Russia was by no means forced into the conflict. They did it because Putin wants more power for himself.
- Russia has great diplomatic power. They managed to get a Russia loving president in US.
- If Ukraine falls, then there’s going to be some other nation that will be the ”state between empires”. Next will be Moldova. Maybe Russia is brave enough to take on the Baltic countries as well now when the future of NATO is uncertain. If that succeeds, then Poland will be next, and maybe also eastern Germany.
- Ukraine rejected the US offer because it didn’t offer any safety guarantees other than that Trump said that Putin said something. Why should Ukraine sign a deal that won’t end the war?
because Putin wants more power
They managed to get a Russia loving president in US
Holy moly “great men historiography” and “Russia is behind everything I hate” both in one single comment, that’s quite the feat. Great job firstly ignoring the material analysis and geopolitics of the situation and trying to explain history as “big man makes decision”, and then falling for the racist trope that the USA isn’t capable of electing a fascist without external interference, as if the US wasn’t founded in the fascist principles of the Lebensraum and slavery->segregation
If Ukraine falls
Ukraine will not fall. The objective of Russia in this war isn’t pure expansionism further to the west, it’s the imposition of its political principles and strategic desires in its sphere of influence. The Russian government knows it cannot control successfully for a long period of time the now (understandably) anti-Russian radicalised sections of central and western Ukraine, what it wants are concessions in geopolitical and strategic terms. Mark my words: the war in Ukraine will stop sooner than later, and after it, only some sections in eastern Ukraine will be annexed to Russia.
Furthermore your reasoning of “if this nation falls, there’s gonna be the next”, is exactly the way Russia feels about its geopolitical allies. In 1990, there was an agreement that NATO wouldn’t push beyond Germany, and that has been violated first with Poland and then with more countries. Why push a US-backed military alliance to the borders of the US-declared main geopolitical enemy? What consequences do you expect from that? Imagine a Russian-led military coalition pushing for the annexion of Mexico.
Ukraine rejected the US offer because it didn’t offer any safety guarantees
Regardless of safety guarantees, the resources of western Ukraine will be plundered by the NATO block, whether it be EU or the USA I cannot know, but mark my words when you see the economic situation of Ukraine in 2030
Lots of LLM bots today. We may need to start verifying accounts :/
I’ve been noticing this a lot. There’s a lot more Russian support in all my apps. I really think there’s a concerted effort that is now being fully enabled by our current administration.
I don’t doubt this, but I haven’t personally noticed it before. Can you share more insight about what you noticed, so I can be on the lookout?
There wasn’t peace before Russia invaded. The far-right US puppet regime was slaughtering ethnic Russians in the east, and allowing NATO to move in troop and missile deployments to the Russian border.
Why would Ukraine behave differently after a Russian withdrawal, when they were escalating for 8 years prior to the invasion?
Arent your eyes watering? How can you even type? With putins cock jammed so far your throat? No gag reflex?
What is it about NATO & Israeli bots that causes y’all to so reflexively gravitate towards sexual violence? Is it part of the official training, or are y’all just like that?
Let’s just ignore that both France and Germany admitted that the Minsk 1 and 2 were never going to be carried out by Ukraine, or the EU. Don’t believe the meme! We’ve been lied to since the beginning of 2014 about the Ukraine Project.
Fuck Russia
“But Putin is my BFF, he pinky promised that he would not do it again.”
A reminder, atleast Putin sees Ukrainians as his people just under the wrong leadership (even if it’s imperialism and annexation). It’s not like Israel where they want to wipe 5+ million people off the fucking region, ideally in concentration camps which is happening and documented. (Not endorsing Russia, I just fucking hate all of you)
I don’t think russians and Putin do tho, they see Ukrainians as inferior
Daily executions of POWs and masacares like bucha, and not to mention targeting civilians on a daily basis.
Very similar to isrea/palestinia in that context
What is there to negotiate? If all the russians leave ukraine, ukranians will probably stop shooting them…
Russia has always firmly opposed expansion of NATO, including the missiles and NATO troops that were lined up at their border with Ukraine’s participation.
Do you think that NATO was planning to invade Russia? And if not, then WTF is Putin’s problem?
Why does Russia get to dictate what other countries do within their borders?
I’m pretty sure every country on earth would respond to a hostile force amassing troops & missiles at their border.
The fundamental difference here is between a sovereign nation pursuing defensive alliances versus an aggressive invasion violating international law. Ukraine wasn’t “amassing troops & missiles” at Russia’s border as an hostile threat - it was seeking security guarantees after Russia had already annexed Crimea in 2014 and fomented separatist movements in eastern Ukraine. National sovereignty means countries get to determine their own security arrangements, and Russia’s “security concerns” don’t justify violating Ukraine’s territorial integrity or dictating its foreign policy choices.
It’s not a sovereign nation. The US installed a far-right puppet regime in the 2014 Maidan Coup, which triggered the Crimea invasion.
Funny that folks who claim to support Ukrainian sovereignty don’t give a shit about them being under a western thumb.
And where is the “non-puppet” that was removed during the Maidan Revolution hiding these days?
It is time that the world recognized that the USA is just like Russia and China. Never, ever to be trusted. All the pretense has fallen away under Trump but the real America, supported by 70% of its population, is showing its true colours. They’ve bullied their “Allies” for 70 years to be their friends, but they’ve never been a friend back. It’s all been a guise to get whatever they wanted and steal all the riches a country could produce or make other country’s industry beholden to American corporations. While previous American Administrations may have believed in the soft power their approach yielded and understood how it made the USA rich, Trump does not.
He’s only supported by 30%-40% of the pop
Fool me once, shame on me, fool me 20 times and I should sign away half my country’s mineral wealth for no guarantees and no gains…
So what’s the alternative?
Edit: looks like there wasn’t an alternative despiteso many people beating their chests that there is 🤷♂️
https://www.rferl.org/a/trump-congress-ukraine-russia-war-tariffs-speech/33336730.html
Give Ukraine everything they need to kick the Russians off their soil. Tomahawks, F35s, a million artillery shells a week, etc… lift all usage restrictions with the exception of civilian targets and infrastructure. Once every square inch of Ukraine is back in Ukrainian hands full NATO membership and a Marshall like recovery plan.
Or assassinate Putin. As long as Putin lives Ukraine is under threat.
and infrastructure.
No. That has to go. The war will end a lot sooner, if there aren’t any bridges and rails left, the Russkies can use to ship ammo and cannon fodder.
I meant civilian infrastructure. So like power stations or shipping centers that handle civilian goods or subways etc… If it carries a single artillery round it’s fair game.
How did we reach a point where the most hawkish warmongering psychos think they’re left-leaning?
Fighting fascists is a long standing tradition of the left. Pick up a history book idiot.
Why did the US install a fascist government in Russia?
That’s unsustainable, brainless and unrealistic, who is going to pay and fight if the war continues for 5 more years, what about 10 more years?
Russia is importing North Koreans to fight. You think if Ukraine gets unlimited weapons the war will last 5 more years? What day of the 3 day invasion are we on now?
The only reason the war has lasted this long is because of the drip feeding of weapons. which was probably a ploy to extend the war and make defense contractors more rich. So yeah, end it quickly by giving Ukraine what it needs to win.
So, what’s your "totally realistic"TM solution?
And if you’re wrong and the war can indeed go on for 10 more years are you prepared to deal with the consequences of the destruction of Ukraine, potentially nuclear war and destabilization of Europe?
Looks like I was right and there’s no other real alternative, which is why Zelenskyy did a 180 on the minerals deal 🤷♂️:
https://www.rferl.org/a/trump-congress-ukraine-russia-war-tariffs-speech/33336730.html
Weapons don’t win wars, people do, and Ukraine has a severe troops shortage right now that will only get worse as the war goes on. You can give them all the weapons in the world, if there’s no one there to fire them, they’ll still lose
That is fundementally wrong. Firepower absolutely makes up for numbers disadvantage.
if a hundred Russians, Norks and other Mercenaries and their vehicles get smoked in a battle by a single cluster bomb. Rinse and repeat
These people are delusional, the liberation of Ukraine can only happen if NATO troops land on the battlefield. And we all know that means nuclear war.
It only means Nuclear War if Putin decides he’s ready to die.
its not a gaurantee he flips a switch and decides to unleash fire the second NATO starts shooting at him, good chance he scuffles off and cuts his losses, if the fighting is contained to Ukraine and the border, its not a given that he’d condemn himself and his empire to death over the wasteland that is the Donbas
Theory that more weapons wins is based on Russia being overextended and not outproducing west by itself. Your point on “endless war being perfect US policy” is the right one. Wining a war is always terrible. It means an end to war, and just look at how sad everyone around here is about that prospect. That Ukraine could suffer far more destruction, as retaliation for the special weapons it uses for terrorism inside Russia, is far more likely, as is striking western nations as punishment for “breaking the script of a slow war of attrition with eventual Russian victory”.
ATCMS got Ukraine electricity sector destroyed, instead of winning. US can produce 60 per year.
Out producing the west by itself? Bwahaahhahahahaa.
3 times the artillery shells as US+Europe combined
Your propaganda bubble is not there to help you.
Russia does not have the capacity to fight 5 or 10 more years (unless the US backstops them). Ukraine does not need the resources to go 10 years. They need the resources to outlast the Russians. That is probably more like 18 to 24 months. It could be less.
In my view, that is not only affordable but quite inexpensive given the benefits.
Europe and the US have contributed about $250 billion collectively over the last 3 years (Europe has contributed more). That is a small amount of money for either of them. Most of the $120 billion the US counts as Ukraine aid has been spent on new weapons systems for the United States for the US military. The US builds themselves new weapons, sends Ukraine old ones, and counts the value of the old weapons as Ukraine aid. The thing is, most of these weapons would have been decommissioned in a few years without being used (assuming the US does not enter any major wars). So, the “real” cost to the US is actually far less.
Both the US and Europe not only can sustain their current commitment. They could easily increase it without breaking a sweat. I lay no claim to it but Norway alone has a $1.7 trillion dollar pile of cash.
In my view, the real question is who is going to pay for the aftermath of Russia’s continued aggression if they are allowed to invade Ukraine?
Was it cheaper to have World War II or to stop Germany in Poland or Czechoslovakia? What would we have done in 1945 if given the chance to do it again?
Perhaps you are right that it is unrealistic. That is more an opinion than a demonstrable fact and my opinion is no better than yours.
I am not sure I can agree that it is brainless. While that is also an opinion, there are lots to facts to counter that argument.
Supporting Ukraine no matter what it takes seems like the clear and obvious choice. I guess that is why it is what every country that matters is doing (except the US—now).
Do you have a better argument?
Looks like we’ll meet again here in a few years, after thousands more will die and more territory will be lost to argue again about how this war can hypothetically end, just because Zelensky’s ego was too big.
Don’t pretend like you give a shit about Ukrainian lives.
Don’t pretend like you give a shit about Ukrainian lives
Can you really not imagine an alternative?
I see plenty of alternatives, just not one in which people stop dying immediately.
History teaches us that Russia cease fire agreements mean that fewer die immediately but that lasts a far shorter time than you hope for. In the end, even more people die than before when Russia resumes their aggression.
This is not a prediction or an opinion. That are literally dozens of historical events to draw this information from.
According to what you’re saying, the only solution is NATO troops fighting in Ukraine because we cannot trust Russia in any way, shape or form.
When are you willing to enroll to go to the front?
You have textbook RT talking points. It’s so fucking obvious you’re a russian asset at the very keast
Yeah bro, everyone who doesn’t have your specific world view is a russian asset. What, are you 12?
I can’t believe that my point was proven in just a couple of days: https://www.rferl.org/a/trump-congress-ukraine-russia-war-tariffs-speech/33336730.html
Your point hasn’t been proven. OPs point was that Putin promises can’t be trusted. And without US putting force behind that promise, Ukraine is wise to be worried about such a deal.
Just because one alternative realized doesn’t mean there weren’t other options, better or worse.
Edit: plus, a peace deal is far from done, regardless which side you root for.
Give Ukraine back their own nuclear defense. Suddenly Russia can tolerate a neighbour who isn’t a vassal state and can make their own determinations about which pacts they want to enter into with other countries. Ukraine joins NATO and the EU. Putin burns in hell. AKA Happy ending.
i don’t know who needs to hear this, who in their right minds would see Ukraine as the aggressor in this war
