I was just sitting at the mall taking a break from mall walking. A man walked over to me when I wasn’t even looking up. He said "I haven’t seen you here before. " I said I wasn’t really here to talk to people and got up and walked away. He said he would leave, he may even have said sorry. I said I was ready to leave anyway. In retrospect I think he may have just been slightly mentally challenged so I wish I had been a little softer, he did not turn out to be aggressive. Looking for suggestions on something still clear and firm but more polite? This scared me for some reason, I think how fast he walked up and sat down near me.
Editing to add a key detail, he sat down close to me which is probably what made me more nervous than I would have otherwise been. I appreciate all the thoughtful feedback I’ve gotten and interesting discussion.
He’s not mentally challenged, you are socially challenged. It’s perfectly normal in the real world for two people who don’t yet know each other to have a little talk or banter without being afraid.
Weird to sit down close to someone you don’t know
No it is not. You thinking that is a confession of your lack of social skills.
I think it’s good you listened to your instincts and were firm. If he has a disability that makes social things complicated, being obvious was a favor to him. If he did have bad intentions, your immediate willingness to leave showed you weren’t an easy mark.
There are probably good scripts for this, but I don’t know them. I just think you should know it doesn’t sound like you handled it badly.
Bro had zero game.
I worked with adults (and children) with developmental disabilities and this was a common thing we dealt with. We would take groups of guys out into the community to work and get some socialization. Since I’m a man, I usually worked with guys while women worked with women.
A lot of these people typically don’t get out into the community often so we were there to help them understand what was appropriate and what wasn’t. It was somewhat common for some guys in our groups, and we usually knew who was more prone to it than others, who would do this so we’d have a closer eye on where they were. We also had some who had sexual assault records and we made sure to be very, very close to them in proximity and not letting them out of our sight while ensuring that they had the same opportunities to have a normal life in public as possible.
We worked with both high functioning and low functioning populations, that is to say those who you can tell have some type of disability are lower functioning, as we referred to them back in the day and there may be some more politically correct term used now, with higher functioning population being less recognizable and more like anyone else you’d see in public, usually people with autism.
I say all that to say that if this man had a developmental disability, just from what you said here about how you handled it sounds fine. You didn’t sound rude or violent or anything. Just sounds like you were firm and polite and aware of your own safety which is great.
Most women who were approached by our population handled it very well. I can’t think of a time when someone didn’t and acted inappropriately in return. I think most women could tell seeing our groups and then noticing us as the staff coming along to redirect the guy and prompt him away from what he was doing that was inappropriate.
I remember one guy we had in particular who had a deep fascination for black women (he was Asian but at the same time would talk about how much he hated “Mexicans” and was part of the KKK) and would almost cross the line multiple times with women any chance he got. Not like violently attacking anyone but just overly verbally creepy. But even with him and how aggressive and creepy he’d be, women were very kind and polite but firm and did almost like you, just tried to make their escape. We’d make sure to be near him as much as possible but sometimes he’d get away from our sight and go do things like this. I remember one time he was very much into one woman but she was interested in my coworker who got her number and that set him off into a rage when he saw them talking and her handing him something.
You know, somehow we have got to get back to the place where strangers can talk to each other in public places. I understand your position and why you needed to do that. I just regret the fact that conversations in public seem to be a lost art.
My dad is one of those people who makes friends everywhere he goes - talking to people in elevators, etc. and people react well to it. Everybody can’t be that outgoing and shouldn’t be. But I think the % of people who can do that now is going to be much less than it was in the past, which is a shame.
It is a shame, but it’s not simply individual personal attitudes that’s causing this. People are afraid of strangers. The problem is, there are too many cases where that’s actually justified now.
The bad people have in fact ruined it for everybody. They have made it legitimately dangerous to have this sort of openness and trust in most slices of society, at least for people who look and behave a certain way, or were born certain ways. The problem is, under the influence of traditional media and social media and government and all the other dysfunctional and corrupt systems in our society, we’ve started tolerating the actually bad and dangerous people in society, instead of punishing them. Often we’re actually celebrating them, and in some cases even electing them President. It makes it almost impossible to sustain a functioning society when bad people are allowed to do bad things with impunity or worse, reward for their behavior. This is what’s causing the breakdown of society. Trust is hard to build and easily broken, and now it’s been broken and it seems like fewer and fewer people are interested in trying to rebuild it.
Why the fuck would women trust anyone in this society when allegedly half of the people in the world’s most economically powerful and culturally influential country voted for a party who is now occasionally saying women shouldn’t have the right to make decisions about their own bodies or even have the right to vote. These horrifyingly regressive attitudes are not just extremist throwaway comments because they are being paired with actions in the US and around the world, and they have serious consequences.
And yes, I am allowed to bring politics into this, because society is literally made out of politics. That’s what politics is, it’s the primary ingredient for making civilization function and it defines how it functions. Our aversion to discussing contentious “politics” is what has allowed society to decay to the point it has. This is not about being “woke” this is about being intelligent enough to want to live in a civilized society. Civilization requires not just moral boundaries but also the willingness to treat those who push at or exceed those moral boundaries as an existential threat, because they are. If you want your society to be good, you cannot tolerate evil. The boundaries and definitions are not always clear, but we must grapple with them as they stand, not avoid them. Grappling with these issues is the day-to-day work required to make civilization function. It is not a failing that we will always have these issues and always struggle with these issues, but it is a failing if we stop trying to struggle with them, because then we’re no longer keeping society functioning. Politics is life. Life is politics.
The irony here is that… you are one of those bad people.
You’re entire attitude here is the pure hostility and suspicion without any evidnece to back it up.
A random stranger on the street has nothing to do with Epstein or Trump, and your assumption they do until otherwise proven ‘innocent’ an incredibly toxic and hostile way of living life.
Perhaps you should stop obsessing over this stupid shit because you have no control over it and never will. Nor will anyone else who isn’t also part of the social elite.
Your political beliefs also have no bearing on your personal deeds with other people. Plenty of hardcore leftist liberals lie, cheat, and steal and would do so from you if given the opportunity. Perhaps even you yourself have done those things, and you certainly seem to think they’d be justified against the ‘enemy’ you imagine is lurking around every corner.
Your political beliefs also have no bearing on your personal deeds with other people.
I find this highly unlikely. Both stem from your internal sense of morality / your values / the way you see the world, and will be influenced accordingly and therefore very related.
Speaking of which:
A random stranger on the street has nothing to do with Epstein or Trump
A third of the US voted for the latter. Anyone willing to put him in charge is delusional in their judgement to the point that I would consider myself in danger if I needed to rely on them. Not to mention that, as above, their moral axioms are likely to be disgusting, and that affects how they will treat me. Most social interactions can go fine, but any sort of extended relationship will not be.
Most people are told to be afraid because of TB/Twitter and internalize it. That makes them, partly, losers. The people that go out and make human connections usually know this, and do it to remind people that real life isn’t on the internet or in their heads. I do it too sometimes for fun, other times I’m like the rest of them.
Most people are told to be afraid because of TB/Twitter and internalize it.
No, most women are afraid because 1 in every 4 of us have been raped. Women all know someone who has been raped, whether it’s themselves or the other women in their life.
We don’t need social media to tell us to be afraid. Men do a good enough job of making us scared already.
or real life expereince with people like the OP have taught us it’s not worth it.
Frankly, I don’t want to interact with people who assume I’m mentally ill for being friendly to them. And where I live at least, that’s the way a lot of folks react to friendly conversation if you are like standing in line with them. they act like you’re trying to assault them.
Then they go on reddit and lament how body wants to be their friend… well because you reject anyone who tries to be friendly to you and you mischaracterize them in your mind as some terrible person.
and it’s very aged based. I have a dog. people over 50 have no problem petting and asking me about my dog. millennials and younger folks, are like visible anxious and paranoid about interacting with me and asking me to pet my dog. I am also a millennial, I do not understand any of it. But I’m not on social media and I barely use my smart phone for anything other than phone calls and email, so I understand I’m an outlier in the way I interact with people. People my own age think I am weird for not wanting to text, and think my preference for phone calls and face to face interact is ‘demanding’.
I suspect this might be cultural. In some parts of Switzerland (e.g. rural LU) you’re expected to greet strangers walking past you. Do that in Zurich and you might get the same kind of negative feedback. OTOH, OP’s case was more than a courteous “hello”…
Yes, it’s cultural. It’s also part of the ‘loneliness epidemic’ that is affecting most westernized countries. As a larger and larger cohort of the population becomes socially isolated, especially young adults.
And frankly, I’ve noticed a huge cultural shift in my own city the past 5 years. I used to have way more casual interactions, and now many of those same casual interactions are viewed with hostility and suspicion… just like OP’s reaction.
10 years ago if someone dropped something and you picked it up for them they’d thank you. Now they act get angry with you for trying to help them, and sometimes accuse you of theft or harassment. And that type of reaction basically teaches folks to just not bother, it’s a type of death spiral. Even personally, as the years go by and the hostility ratio goes up, it makes me increasingly want to socialize less in general. Even many of my closer friends from years ago have gone down this rabbit hole of hostility and suspicion, and I stopped interacting with them because it was so exhausting and miserable to be around someone who thinks the bartender is ‘looking at them funny’… no it’s you whose looking at the bartender funny… you idiot.
It is increasingly difficult to find folks who are receptive and open minded to strangers, which is the building block of any/all socialization. And what’s incredibly rare is folks who can just politely say no without demonizing the other person.
It is totally reasonable to react the way you did. You don’t owe it to other people to be comfortable around them. They should be thinking about what they can do to make you comfortable, ideally before they do it, and this guy clearly wasn’t. If it is because of some disability or something that’s totally plausible too, but that’s his problem and his cross to bear, not yours. You weren’t rude or cruel, but you were uncomfortable, and you’re allowed to be. If he is capable of learning from that, maybe he will, and I think it would be a good lesson for him to learn.
You don’t have to feel bad about it, it makes sense that you regret how the interaction turned out after the fact, but that regret comes from the additional information and processing time you had afterwards to think about it. If you want to reconsider that guy as a possibly decent fellow who deserves another chance in retrospect that’s alright, and maybe if you see him again you can extend a little more tolerance for his behavior if you think it’s safe. But it doesn’t mean you were wrong in the first place. In general, you should trust your instincts and listen to them, they’re just trying to keep you safe, and better safe than sorry. You should not have to be scared of a man sitting down next to you, but the way some men act in the world we live in, you have every right to. It’s sad, but it’s realistic, and you are not responsible for solving this problem on society’s behalf. When we’ve built a society where you can have a man sit next to you and feel safe about it, then that’ll be great. But we’re not there yet.
They should be thinking about what they can do to make you comfortable, ideally before they do it, and this guy clearly wasn’t.
I agree that OP’s reaction was reasonable but what about the guy’s actions make it so clear to you that he wasn’t thinking about OP’s comfortability? They tried to strike up a friendly conversation and backed off immediately when it wasn’t well-received.
It’s fine to not want to talk but people really shouldn’t have to avoid basic human interaction just because 1% of people might not be interested at that time.
This scared me for some reason, I think how fast he walked up and sat down near me.
Editing to add a key detail, he sat down close to me
I don’t directly know OP’s age or the man’s age in this case, but I’m giving OP the benefit of the doubt, and from context I’m inferring that the man was probably older than her given that she refers to him as a “man” and it just sounds like she’s relatively younger (especially if this is sort of one of her first experiences with this sort of thing).
The “sat down close to me” also makes it sound like there was sufficient open seating, and the man specifically chose to sit directly next to and close to this girl. I understand that public spaces often have inadequate seating options and seats that are packed too close together for comfort, and that’s a separate problem, but there’s nothing suggesting that’s what actually happened here, and as I said, I am giving OP the benefit of the doubt.
With those contextual details in place, in my world and perspective, I would suggest that the older man approaching the younger girl to talk should probably approach with some caution, not “fast”, and perhaps even ask permission before sitting and trying to strike up a conversation. I don’t think that’s unreasonable or too much to ask. I’m not saying anyone can’t strike up a conversation with anyone they choose to, of any age, but for the people that choose to do so with strangers, they would benefit from having some social awareness if the situation is anything like what I am picturing (unfortunately realistically) in my head.
Unfortunately, apologizing in that way is another tactic that some men use to try to trick you into engagement.
He might have been manipulating you. Fear was the proper response.
/ am a man
// have met men who do that
/// I avoid them, too
BE AFRAID OF EVERYTHING NEVER ENGAGE NEVER CURIOUSLY FOLLOW A SOCIAL THREAD NEVER OBSERVE OR BE OBSERVED OR TALK OR RESPOND NIGHTMARE NIGHTMARE NIGHTMARE
Fascinating how I’m getting just as many upvotes as downvotes.
Keep on down-voting me! Downvotes are public - and you are outing yourself as part of the problem.
As we all know, it is impossible for two reasonable people to disagree
Oh and blatantly judging men is somehow not part of the problem? Sure buddy.
I simply don’t like they way you categorize people based on gender. You are part of the shit gender wars. Most stupid thing ever to do and just a waste of air.
Oh and blatantly judging men is somehow not part of the problem?
If men don’t want to be judged, then don’t approach a woman who clearly doesn’t want to talk and insist on talking anyway despite her discomfort.
For the record, the deleted comment was thanking that person for outing themselves as part of the problem. For some reason, it got removed due to Rule 7.
There was no mockery. It is seriously useful to all the women on Lemmy to know when somebody is toxic toward women.
Wow that’s really good advice, thank you!
Men try to trick you into engagement?
Trick you into what? Having a conversation?
If she wasn’t comfortable nothing says she has to stay(she’s free to leave), but what was he trying to trick her into?
Meanwhile women post videos asking “why can’t I find a date? Why won’t anyone say hi”.
Yes. Some people, including women but more often men, will initiate a conversation in a way that puts the other person on the defense which prompts additional interaction. While saying “I haven’t seen you here before” could be an icebreaker while pushing buttons on an elevator at an apartment building saying it after rushing up and sitting down next to someone who is looking down is basically invading someone’s personal space when they weren’t ready and comes across as pressuring for a reaction.
I had the same thought at first until the last sentence that said how quickly he approached and sat down. If he came in slower, asked to sit next to her, and if she said yes he said the same thing it would be completely different. I’m a dude and I wouldn’t want someone rushing to sit down next to me and start a conversation when I was looking down at something.
Trick you into what? Having a conversation?
I think you know perfectly well what women fear from men. That’s not to say it was necessarily the intention of this person to have anything nefarious happen.
Meanwhile women post videos asking “why can’t I find a date? Why won’t anyone say hi”.
Strawman. OP didn’t, and she’s the person we’re currently discussing.
I can’t believe “andrewta” (wonder what that would spell with two letters added) is minimizing the fears of women who have random men approach them!
You may be discussing OP, but the person you’re replying to appears to be discussing the general application of your advice. This is a reasonable and minor expansion of the scope of the conversation.
You’re fine, he may have been mentally challenged, he may be immersed in a mall walking social group that has formed there and thought it was a risk worth taking based on previously successful or milder experiences, but you are well within your rights socially and everything else to be firm and curt and avoidant. I applaud your continued assessment and concern, it shows you actually care about people’s feelings, so imo you’re fine and will do great with whatever options you go with in the future. If you want my suggestion for a slightly easier refusal, I’d maybe just say “I really do appreciate your being social and being welcoming, I’m just not up for socializing today, sorry” and that should do it. But I think you did fine.
We are so cooked as a society.
- Why are women afraid of strangers (men) as a default?
- Men are automatically assumed to be predators
I feel for boys. It’s going to get worse, so much worse.
Can you take a wild guess at answering your own question here?
Why would women be afraid of men they don’t know as a default?
Oh I’m well aware the answer. I’m 49 so I’ve learned that my world as a middle aged straight white man is not the lived experience of the vast majority of people.
We are not reflecting enough on that question.
But, and it’s a big but, we are also not reflecting on what this is doing to the psyche of men of which the majority are “good”.
I wouldn’t have enjoyed growing up in a world where the default is to demonize me for being a boy.
But, and it’s a big but, we are also not reflecting on what this is doing to the psyche of men of which the majority are “good”.
It is not women’s responsibility to put aside our fear of rape and murder to make men feel better about themselves. It’s on men to call out other men, protect women in these types of situations, and treat others with kindness so that kindness can be returned.
We also need to educate our youth what respect and consent mean and that women aren’t objects to be gained or used by men.
I didn’t enjoy growing up in a world where women are sexualized and raped at such high rates.
I disagree in that it’s on both parties to listen and what I am experiencing as women gain more and more equality and take over (thank God men have fucked up enough), they’re making the same goddamn problems.
There is a urgent and growing problem with young men that is going to impact the lives of women and the response cannot be to point fingers and go “buh buh buh men!”.
Most men will tell you rape is wrong. Most men will tell you overt sexualization is wrong.
The problem, simply stated, is that we have rightly been nurturing and lifting women to reach a point of equality in the system but we have not been spending that same energy in ensuring our boys and now men are not left feeling under threat and marginalized at the same time. They aren’t but it’s easy to feel that way.
I think in person we would have a lot in common and I believe we want the same thing. What matters is the approach. The current approach is going to be very dangerous if we continue down the road. The manosphere is simply one concerning symptom as is the rise of nationalism.
There is a urgent and growing problem with young men that is going to impact the lives of women and the response cannot be to point fingers and go “buh buh buh men!”.
How will it impact the lives of women?
Andrew Tate.
Oh ok, so if women aren’t nicer to men, they’re going to be raped and trafficked even more?
Great motivation.
Approaching a woman to strike up a conversation is a bit of a fine art to do it in a way that doesn’t skeeve them the fuck out and plopping your ass down right next to them is definitely in the list of don’ts. Hell I’m a guy and I’d be skeeved out a bit if this happened to me.
You did nothing wrong and I’m giving him the benefit of the doubt of just being socially unaware since he didn’t press it.
I learned in my 20’s that when I strike up conversations with strangers, it’s a lot better to ensure everyone (including yourself) has an easy physical exit. People are more responsive to someone else making a comment as they’re passing by, rather than cornering them in a confined space, or requiring someone to physically change their direction of movement or step aside to let the other leave. It should feel graceful, where someone who doesn’t want to talk can exit the conversation at very little perceived cost to anyone. It doesn’t have to feel like rejection, and that often starts with the physical arrangement of the people involved, in the setting where it happens.
I’ve been with my wife for over 10 years, so it’s been a while since I’ve approached a woman with the specific intention of seeing if there was potential for a romantic/sexual connection, but I still talk to strangers and build new friendships. Not everyone is open to talking to strangers, but plenty of people enjoy a little bit of low cost social connection, even if it’s intended to be ephemeral. Or if you really hit it off and become friends. But every approach should be assumed to be a fleeting moment, rather than a “I’m going to talk to this person until they tell me to stop” kind of commitment.
You did nothing wrong.
The message was clear: women were meant to be frightened, not empowered by these stories. The power of “fuck politeness” lies in how it “locates women’s daily fears and vulnerability to violence in the context of a feminist politics about deference and men’s status and power.”
Women are socialized from a young age to prioritize others’ comfort, even at the expense of their safety. This “deference behavior” is what feminist scholars identify as one way “women acknowledge and reinforce the higher social status of men.” However, through the MFM community, women find permission to reject these dangerous social expectations.
“Before I became a part of this community and was given permission to ‘fuck politeness,’ I would have uncomfortably chatted with this guy for fear of seeming rude. From a very young age, it’s ingrained in us to be polite and never offend anyone,” wrote one listener in Reddit.
I think it’s important to separate “polite” courses of action from a polite manner of choosing a course. You shouldn’t feel the need to join a conversation you don’t want to just to be polite, but you should be polite in your rejection (as OP was).
Women don’t have to be polite in their rejection especially when they are feeling uncomfortable.
Fuck Politeness is about putting one’s own safety above other people’s feelings.
Nobody has to be polite. It is simply good to do as long as it does not negatively impact safety.
I have to disagree with some other responses–the combination of the statement and immediately walking away sounds rude.
Just say you’re not really there to talk to people, maybe add a “sorry”, and look away from the guy. Or you could have added “sorry” to the beginning of your statement. Really any little thing to show that it’s nothing personal.
If she wants to be more polite in the future in similar situations, I think your script is useful and I appreciate it. But I think since his behavior made her afraid, getting away quickly without concern for etiquette was the better move and she doesn’t need to feel bad about it. It indicated immediately, if her instincts were correct, that she wouldn’t be an easy target. If he was just trying to make a connection and fumbling, he discovered quickly she won’t give him one, so he could go sit next to someone else.
(It’s useful to keep in mind that he already was slightly rude by sitting down without a cursory “is this seat free” that would be a very basic manners for this situation. He didn’t, and it’s not evil or anything that he didn’t. But when she got up and left abruptly she was at the same level of rudeness. I don’t think either party needs to feel bad about it, tbh. Social fumbles happen constantly.)
Women don’t have to be polite in pursuit of their own safety.
I didn’t say we do.
I mean, telling OP she was rude and that she should’ve apologized to the guy is kinda saying we do have to be polite even if we feel uncomfortable.
I don’t think you had ill intent or anything.
I think people who are socially inept are often advised to strike up innocuous little throwaway conversations with strangers in public places to improve their ability to interact. Unfortunately this is also exactly the MO of killers in CSI programmes.
I’m a man and that would be very weird to me as well. You have to first test the waters, see if the other person wants to talk, and if they respond positively, you can have your chat. It is a bit like a negotiation: You need to establish that this monkey will not murder and eat that other monkey, and that that other monkey is not in a barely restrained murdering mood itself. Once that’s out of the way, have your chat.
If that sounds like a sales tactic, it sadly is. Door to door salesmen employ the very “tricks” deliberately, which sucks, but does not make it less valid. We are cursed with a mind that can analyse itself. Things get easier if one accepts that as basic biology.
Looking for suggestions
With a username (feelings67@lemmy.world) that matches
\w+\d+and has no comments since its creation (2 weeks for you), I would tell you to lurk more because we are flooded by spam and your account is suspicious.
