Serious question, why do we give so much power to these tech firms such as Google, when really the solution is decentralization. We have some solutions for money with bitcoin, but there still doesn’t seem to be a viable alternative with a search engine that is decentralized?

@Danrobi@lemmy.ml
19edit-23M

Of course theres decentralized search engine. If everyone was using YaCy and would run a crawl of everything that is missing in YaCy, nobody would need Google search engine, period!

New Edit:

To run YaCy less demonic (low resources device)

Controlling cpu usage :

At the /PerformanceQueues_p.html page, you can limit some threads (light processes inside the JVM) maximum numbers (in the Thread Pool Settings table). When you are crawling, you can also control the Speed / PPM (Pages Per Minute) in the /Crawler_p.html page.

I didn’t know about YaCy, and have now a running instance of it. Many thanks!

Bilb!
33M

I have tried running YaCy as a senior node recently. I couldn’t get the crawler to work for some reason. I’ll have to look into it again some time.

biggest problem with yacy is that is slow java, they should had done this on C or GO/RUST now a days

Java is memory hungry but certainly not slow, especially compared to Go

it is slow if you “have to” install the java JDK etc on a “clean” system just to run a java app. and we can argue about java vs go another time.

That’s plain silly.

@spla
admin
123M

I’m looking forward to europe opensearch foundation

Is there any result coming from that foundation yet? It looks like a paper tiger to me.

@spla
admin
13M

seems any from them

when really the solution is decentralization

Why would it be? It will always be faster to bring updates, improve algorithms on a centralized system, while also being better in terms of UX.

We have some solutions for money with bitcoin

Solution to what? The only solution Bitcoin brings is to decentralize centralized currencies, at the cost of privacy, lack of accessibility to most people, and unbelievable energy consumption.

energy consumption

Bitcoin alone draws more electricity than the whole of Netherlands now. It’s network is basically a crime against humanity at this point. And I say this as someone with a (small, tiny even) stake in it.

It’s negated all gains made by renewable energy, and for what. A “currency” that is even more centralized in the hands of few people than fiat money is.

I really like Nano for this exact reason (and quick/feeless payments ofc). Bitcoin is just too powerhungry… But who knows if any cryptocurrency could ever reliably replace fiat.

But who knows if any cryptocurrency could ever reliably replace fiat.

The answer is never. Pretty much no one is able to keep a private both secret AND not lose it for a long period of time. It’s not a problem when people lose their PGP keys for example, as they can always create a new one and tell people to use the new one, but with crypto, losing your key means losing your money. Imagine if you lost your bank account because your computer burned in a house fire and you never backed-up your key. If cryptocurrencies became the norm, that would happen to way to many people.

Bitcoin is digital cash - this is a quite complete analogy.

Like cash, you can keep it in your possession, so you can lose it in a fire, or else you can put it in a bank.

So you rely on a bank for your transactions, completely negating the only benefits of cryptocurrencies.

Nah there are lots of benefits, both for the society and the individual. That’s getting off topic though.

I’m just saying you have options. You can have the same anti fire security as with fiat. In fact you can do all the same things with crypto as you can do with fiat cash, if you want to.

It’s negated all gains made by renewable energy

Last time there were research it was driven by 70% of renewable energy. More than most industries.

It actually increases investment into renewable energy by making it more profitable to produce renewable energy.

Exactly my point. Wasting renewable resources on cryptomining is a crime against humanity.

You dont get it.

Much of the energy used would be thrown away wasted. The mining use that energy that otherwise would just be overproduced and thrown away and convert it into coins, thus making production of renewable energy much more profitable than it would otherwise be and thus accelerating the expansion of renewable energy.

Thus it is not a crime, it actually helps motivating building more renewable energy.

Neither you or I cant decide if it is wasting or not. Its simply our opinion.

the main issue I see with bitcoin is that so many people are investing in it and not using it for its real purpose (an alternative to actual money). The fact that the fed prints money while bitcoin is finite shows that there will be less inflation issues. Although I am not an economist

It’s a “currency” where the majority of currency got handed out to very few people very early on. It’s has a more concentrated level of wealth than the real economy has. And the energy use is a far bigger issue than all others.

It is way more distributed than wealth in the normal fiat system in which only a few owns 50% of all the wealth.

Unlike that system you are also free not to use it.

You also have the opportunity to get other coins or versions that are cheaper.

Although I know you are right, I kinda feel the whole energy consumption issue isn’t a big thing, or rather it wouldn’t be if miners would be able to use green energy for them, I don’t care if it consumes a lot of energy if it could help to create a decentralised and fungible currency.

And while BTC certainly has it flaws at least it helped to the creation of better forms of the same concept which could help to achieve that, like Monero or Pirate Chain.

would be able to use green energy for them

you do realize that producing green energy is quite energy intensive right and most of the materials are non recyclable?

Using the green energy we produce to keep a network of money for speculators running is just beyond silly.

The cryptocoin gang are so detached from reality its not even funny at this point.

proof of stake is more sustainable than proof of work. it’s all about holding huge quantities of coins. (or buying coins to hold). …or massive adoption of smaller amounts could also possibly drive the price way up. when the price goes up… it attracts more miners who are less efficient… which is bad for the environment. there are various altcoins like tez0s which would work better for storing large amounts over time. some people think that the miners should be doing productive work…and there are a few less popular coins based around that.
institutional investors and large speculators are the worst for the environment IMO.

Proof of stake is simply giving new money for free to those who are already rich. Proof of work means that there was a verifiable cost behind each coin produced, so was not just handed out for free to the rich.

I’ve always been curious about “proof of being a human” but in not sure if any system has seriously experimented with that.

When we have an decentralised global anonymous or private ID system, it would be the best and most fair way to distibute an decentralized currency.

Thus a decentralised global anonymous ID system would probably be the most important system in humanities evolution in order to create a fair world.

How would it work then, practically? How would you prove your ID corresponds to a real human? Even better, is it possible to prove every ID corresponds to a unique human?

Great questions. Not sure how it would work and if we could make it work. I think MS is working on a solution. But I’m not sure it’s such a good idea if everyone on earth was dependent on the technology of one company for their identity.

Why would it always be better in terms of UX? Nothing is stopping a decentralized system from having good intuitive UIs.

Dreeg Ocedam
1edit-23M

Just the fact that you have many providers is a already a UX challenge. Either you have a “default” provider were everyone will flock (for example gmail for email), making decentralisation pointless or you force people to chose between many smaller providers, and most won’t want to make such a decision before even beginning to use the service and just leave.

I don’t see how that is challenging for users unless they are so lazy that they won’t even change any setting on their device regardless of how annoyed they are. If the app has a directory of instances with their bios linked it can make it easier for them.

Because Google, Bing (less prominently Yandex and Baidu) have an oligopoly on how most of the world searches things.

Search engine indexing takes years, and open source engines lack the infrastructure to speed up web crawling. SearX is just an instance hoster, a proxy. We have Yacy, Wiby, Mojeek, Metager and some other niche search engines. Then we have Qwant, that indexes its own and supplies results using Bing that it has not indexed yet. Then there is DuckDuckGo with its own indexing but is USA based. Then there is System1’s StartPage, essentially a Google proxy with no self indexing that is hostile to Tor users.

Then there are others.

I settled on using Qwant for searching and Yandex via VPN for reverse image searching. Startpage is used extremely rarely and with VPN.

I don’t see why we can’t just have something like a blockchain based search engine where crypto is given based on how much indexing (crawling) is done. Of course this is just an idea right now. But have an incentive to people to do crawling of it through something like blockchain. This ensures that there won’t be any centralization and search result manipulation with things such as psyops (brain washing the population through search results)

Blockchain is a meme. It is the same buzzword lalaland meme that is AI in phone software these days.

LokiNet and Adamant are probably the only serious attempts I have seen in a while, and even they did not get me interested to check them out. If something does not get me tingly in the sack, it is not worth.

Wait until you see what TV makers mean with AI. I recently found a setting ‘AI Brightness’ on my LG TV, which just sets the brightness relative to the environment, measured by a light sensor.

The kind of BS sold to people is hilarious. Every phone has some AI thing, but the only phones with AI NPU chips initially were from Huawei and Apple. Qualcomm followed through years later, and the OEMs that used Qualcomm never really utilised the NPU while calling their features AI.

People fell hard for the AI meme without knowing what it is. But then, what do people even know?

I disagree blockchain technology shouldn’t be underestimated

Considering a technology good means society does not make a joke out of it. Currently, this is not the case.

Blockchain is not a good fit for a distributed search engine, since each node needs to store the entire chain. It’s possible that some sort of system for using a blockchain based token to incentivize participation in an IPFS like network would help provide a funding model for publishing the index, but that would just be one small component in a decentralized search engine, and not even the most interesting one.

You don’t need a Gemini proxy to show the post. Here is a link in the WWW: https://drewdevault.com/2020/11/17/Better-than-DuckDuckGo.html

Shhh! Let’s promote Gemini so we have more content.

What do you mean by decentralized? Searx actually works better than Google with it’s meta search capabilities and the fact you can host it anywhere, it is decentralized.

Are you referring to some sort of decentralized indexing of the internet?

YaCy is a decentralized search engine.

Only if it actually worked.

pros:

  • powerful customization. intuitive and fine grained.
  • decentralized. huge power but not perfected.
  • crawler is simple and customizable. fairly raw.
  • solr/lucene benefits included from day 1.
  • website that covers the basics. and forum for help.

cons:

  • frequently buggy and feels heavy
  • documentation. very little documentation. many good features that are difficult to discover or use.
  • consumes alot of storage. not dividable.
  • setup takes time
  • no foolproof simplicity. and less adoption due to setup time+difficulty.
  • not recognized as important and not very popular. which is a self-fulfilling prophecy.
  • not too many maintainers/contributors. slow development.

alternatives:
none
there are many alternatives for more efficient small personalized search engines with medium startup time and skill level.
a crawler can be more customizable if you script it yourself. (for yacy or whatever else)

To run YaCy less demonic (low resources device)

Controlling cpu usage :

At the /PerformanceQueues_p.html page, you can limit some threads (light processes inside the JVM) maximum numbers (in the Thread Pool Settings table). When you are crawling, you can also control the Speed / PPM (Pages Per Minute) in the /Crawler_p.html page.

https://arborist.wip2p.eth.link/#!/goyacy

I’m new to YaCy and not aware of what may or may not be working but I just saw this mentioned as a “frontend for searching YaCy without having to remember which node to use”.

Anyway, I’m gonna give it a try.

What’s not working? Is it a matter of needing more crawlers as @Danrobi@lemmy.ml mentioned, or something else?

Bilb!
13M

Wow, 2/3 times I tried searching through this site I got a dead (or otherwise inaccessible) node.

Yeah, basically the same for me. Sometimes it works ok. Sometimes I get infinite loading.

ufra
43M

it’s a good question, I don’t know if any of the great minds of search have tried to do something decentralised and what kind of pushback it might receive from the search cartel. It seems like ipfs and peertube might be some fertile grounds for researching it further.

Because it’s hard, requires A LOT of resources so that it’s way easier to ask “why is there still no decentralised search engine?” than actually implement it.

Yeah I agree, its easier said than done. Web crawling requires a lot of resources

Actually, maybe also because it requires even more resources as to build and maintain a proper decentralised software is technically harder than to do the same for a centralised search. And also because investing such resources means more donating them to the whole community rather than making profit, so those resources must not be the someone’s last penny.

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Privacy has become a very important issue in modern society, with companies and governments constantly abusing their power, more and more people are waking up to the importance of digital privacy.

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