I love the fact that fediverse was built from the ground up to be free, federated and interoperable. I have two questions that may come from my lack of expertise / knowledge, so I apologise in advance if they are dumb.
- Bots can disrupt smaller instances:
What is stopping corpos from scraping everyone’s posts and stuff from the fediverse and train their AI? What’s stopping them then, to create loads of not accounts and spam / disrupt smaller communities? When an instances quality drops, the users may be more incentivised to migrate to bigger instances and go there. It’s safe to say most Lemmy users are not going to spin their own instance and start communities from scratch. Meanwhile, the onslaught of bots can overwhelm these budding communities and instances.
- Corpos can flood the fediverse with ads and crap:
Threads comes to mind on this point and how many instances have chosen not to defederate with them. Besides, they can create bridges, and have repost bots in all instances to flood major them with ads. With generative content, it is so much easier to make a seemingly casual post about a product and mask it as an advertisement.
I’ve seen previous posts about people wanting to come because of their opinion about how certain countries behave. I feel the true evil are the corporates.
Thankfully, there aren’t any ads here. Just the thought of it stresses me out, and when I get stressed out, I reach for a Morley cigarette to keep my cool. The toasted tobacco and asbestos filter make for a smoother smoke, which soothes the throat. 9 out of 10 anti-ad, Fediverse, activists choose Morleys to keep up their pep and vigor in the fight against advertisement.
This is comedy gold
more like comedy silver, amirite?
Silver screen?
Aye
Noice
Morley Turkish Golds!
Who are you going to listen to? This guy?
Or Fred Flintstone?
Winstons?! That’s a baby’s cigarette! And I should know because
ourthe parent company of Morleys, Philly Mortis, used to own the Croft Food company, which has a line of baby foods. Also most pediatricians prefer Morley Juniors for the little ones anyway.On a side note, I’ve got to appreciate the level of detail in that ad. His lighter works by rubbing two sticks together. I will never not be delighted by the Flintstones’ anachronisms.
It’s a really catchy commercial, too. “Winston tastes good like a…cigarette should.”
It really is. I guess the silver lining is that hundreds of years of smoking might at least influence our natural selection such that the average person is slightly more resistant to wildfire smoke and acetylcholine agonists/ acetylcholinesterase inhibitors. Perhaps we’ve been training for the environmental disasters and chemical warfare that climate change may bring.
Smoking at recess helped me pass my math exams! 5×5 is 20 just like the number cigarettes in a pack of Morleys. And the number years subtracted from my life expectancy! Thanks Morley! For the maths.
Morley and you! The smarter combination.
Legendary comment, take your internet points
thats another thing. no internet points, so no bots to farm them. upvotes really only indicate the quality of the post or comment that receives the upvotes. no way to use the total number of points to claim validity of your posts or to brag with them.
that being said, at one point we will need to figure out a way to identify and prevent bots that just post propaganda. while we wont have the problem of karmawhoring bots, they dont have the need to karmawhore and can try to spread their propaganda immediately.
Upvotes on a comment are still internet points :p also this comment was just made as lighthearted fun not as something serious
ok sorry :(
i am just worried that the idea of karma on lemmy starts to gain traction :D
I never got why it was important to have “karma” tbh. Just encourages you to only post funny stuff or something the group in x community agrees with otherwise oh no you lose internet points 🫠
Karma can be a useful trust signal, until it’s abused of course and gamified.
I think a lot of negative karma in a month leading to red names or something with it resetting every month would be fine, I just dont like the idea of one bad take silencing someone, or one meme elevating someone
Instead of tracking overall points track streaks, if they get a lot of unique downvotes often flag them.
back when reddit was not just a meme shithole, karma was used to motivate people to post quality content. 90% of the stuff posted on reddit nowadays would get downvoted into oblivion back then. typo in the title or image caption? downvoted. repost? downvoted. low effort? downvoted.
but with growing popularity the flat number of (usually young) users grew that hat other quality standards grew and these kind of faults were ignored. meme became bigger, and there was a general shift in reddits userbase. they changed the algorith to calculate your score and suddenly you could get just so.much.karma from cheap posts.
some communities became very strict in their content to avoid shitposts. some used karma to prevent trolls participating in their subs. nowadays high karma accounts are being sold as they can be used to participate in subreddits with a high reputation (due to participation limitations) and upvoting/downvoting and commenting on certain post can very heavily skew its visibility and impression of the discussed topic on “neutral” users.
so yea, karma used to be a good thing (good content motivation), became a bad thing (karmawhoring), which was still utilized for good things (participation limitation), which led to even worse things (karmafarming bots).
lemmy will have to deal with this sooner or later. there will be bots brigading communities on certain topics and there need to be some kind of indicators to distinguish honest users and trolls.
I got you an AI-generated karma bot propaganda poster. No need to thank me.
Thank you. I’ll see myself out.
Fuck now I want a smoke!
When you’re done, look inside for coupons for other quality products from Croft Foods and Jenny-Ralph Mills among others. You could be enjoying the satisfying crunch of Let’s potato chips and washing it down with a nice, refreshing can of Cuke, all while impressing your significant other by being such a smart shopper and protecting the family budget.
They already tried it. It’s called Threads. It exists. People use it. And other instances have the choice to simply not federate with them.
To me (as unpopular as this sounds) that’s the beautiful thing about FOSS and about Federation in particular. No one is stopping anyone from creating their own instance. Even Corporations.
It’s the ultimate expression of “Anyone can do what they want, say what they want, believe what they want…but no one else is in any way obligated to listen to them/federate with them”
I know of companies that host small mastodon instances for their staff to communicate back and forth. I know of similar setups with lemmy instances. Anyone can use the technology for anything they wish to.
but with threads users have to opt into federation, and… no one does. almost every profile I check keeps it disabled. it even gives them a notice after a while like “hey, you’re sharing with the fediverse, you sure you want to keep this on?”
Well said. I personally don’t get the opposition to Threads using ActivityPub. I like being able to follow Threads profiles without exposing myself to Meta.
I get not wanting to expose people who don’t want it to meta, tho.
If another instance started knowingly federating us ads, or fake content, I’d hit that defederate button very quick.
We just defederate.
And then they would create users in other instances to crossposts their shit, like ml and hex do.
Defederation isn’t really effective as it is right now (and I believe that’s by design).
Nothing. Instances will have to take it upon themselves to defederate, just like how a lot of instances all decided to defederate from Threads.
Wait is Meta’s threads part of the Fediverse?
Kiiiinda, Threads users can opt-in to have their content syndicated out via ActivityPub (and be followed be mastodon users). I’m not positive but I believe it’s still only one-way, meaning Mastodon replies won’t show up on Threads. It’s basically an RSS feed.
Facebook tried and we scoffed.
It’s called the Embrace, Extend, Extinguish strategy of dealing with threats. Microsoft have been endorsing Linux recently for this reason.
Microsoft have been endorsing Linux recently for this reason.
I doubt that’s still the reason, I think they endorse it because they’re making a shit ton of money using it on Azure.
Yes, except that you can’t really do that with open source things. If one instance/a particular piece of software gets compromised, you can always spawn a new one / fork a new project etc.
EEE was designed for open standards/projects.
For example, google talk originally used xmpp. They kept adding features that broke on the xmpp side of things, until people effectively used google talk. They then cut of xmpp, after successfully killing it.
This is not what really happend. Yes initially they added features other XMPP implementations had trouble to catch up with, but the main problem was them not implementing important security features like s2s TLS encryption, thus forcing others to cut them off. Google continued to run their xmpp servers for many years after, but they were so badly maintained and insecure no one wanted to interact with them anymore.
The rest of the xmpp ecosystem continued to grow at a slow pace and is alive and well, it was just an annoying set back going from being able to contact many millions of users on their Gmail linked xmpp accounts to not being able to do that anymore.
Every time someone brings up xmpp and how Google extinguished it, I wonder if xmpp afterwards was somehow worse of than they would have been if Google never had embraced it. I don’t know, but my gut feeling would be that Google mostly just extinguished whatever they brought in in the first place and in that case EEE would be harmless. Am I wrong? If so, please explain.
Mostly yes, but people were a bit naive back then and many onboarded friends and family onto the Gmail service and that burned some bridges and good-will as for Gmail users other xmpp users simply ended up as if offline and never responding.
Fair enough. But maybe there were also people that were brought in by Google, that actually stayed after Google left again? Well, I guess it’s hard to say 🤷♂️
That’s about the only thing they can do with open-source things.
It helps, in the case of Linux, that it’s tightly gate-kept by Linus. Now when he steps down, I will worry for the project.
EEE is a tool to steal users, not products. In the case of Microsoft, using EEE tactics with Linux is to convince people that they can stay on a Windows machine and get their work done, so they don’t need a Linux computer. In the Fediverse, thr value of stealing users is much more obvious.
There’s nothing stopping them from hosting a massive instance. But people aren’t forced to move there to interact with them.
If it is corporate, I ain’t shit postin’
What is stopping corpos from scraping everyone’s posts and stuff from the fediverse and train their AI? What’s stopping them then, to create loads of not accounts and spam / disrupt smaller communities
Nothing stops them right now. Currently they’re causing effective DDOS by scraping manually and there’s no good way to block them except by going to extremes.
In fact, I would prefer if they just used their own instance to scrape content instead of causing downtimes like they do now.
Corpos can flood the fediverse with ads and crap:
For that, the solution is simple, we can defederate.
I’m new and still trying to learn. What would defederating imply? An instance being blocked by all other instances?
Exactly. See also Gab and Truth Social.
Am I reading this right? Meta tried to be compatible with Lemmy and every server owned agreed to mass block them and leave them out?
Not every instance blocked them, but many did.
The fear of Embrace, Extend, Extinguish got a hold of the fediverse when Threads was originally announced.
Not Lemmy specifically, but the broader fediverse (and probably mostly the microblog part dominated by Mastodon and its forks)
Most of the core mastodon servers haven’t blocked threads…
I don’t know how you define “most” or “core” here, but it’s certainly true that mastodon.social and its ~400K users remain federated with Threads.
A lot of instances did block or limit them though, and I’m not going to sit down and calculate which side is in majority 🤷
Most by number of users, I’d guess.
I’m on mastodon.social, and basically never see threads posts.
You can block Threads yourself even if your instance doesn’t
Threads is twitter style (like Mastodon) so it’s not going to have much to do with Lemmy. Threads allows users to opt-into a sort of half-Federation where Mastodon users can follow their content. It’s a unique case and not how Federation normally works.
With Mastodon, content from users on other instances is not “downloaded” unless someone on that instance specifically chooses to follow it. So it’s not like every small Mastodon instance that federates with threads is going to be overwhelmed by all the millions of user feeds on Threads.
Tbh there is a lot of misunderstanding surrounding Threads federation, but in short- there is no technical way for them to “extinguish the fediverse” even if they really, really, wanted to.
“Defederating” just means two instances won’t talk anymore. For example, your instance (lemm.ee) is currently defederated from three others (You can see here). It means you won’t see any posts/comments from users on those instances.
Federation is where one instance “talks” to another and exchanges content. If your instance isn’t federated then you’d just be stuck with your own content and members with no outside interaction.
No, defederation just means 1 instance chooses to stop communicating with another instance.
An instance being blocked by all other instances?
No, defederating is just a single instance blocking another instance, not the entire fediverse doing so.
Nothing, but instances can defed from them if they wish and they can’t stop that either.
Like others pointed out defederation, but to add the important bit for normies (don’t mean derogatory at all) is that it is not meant to be a less complicated or more efficient experience, it is meant to have more (or actual) freedom and democracy.
Much like with gov politics, you have to be active to some degree or a few people can control everything.
So yes, when defederation needs to happen or communities moved (for much of that additional tools will streamline the processes in the future I’m sure), it’s a bit messy, but it doesn’t rob you or feed the megacorps pushing the society into more inequality.
They are already training on the fediverse. If something is on the public web, you can assume it’s in some training data somewhere
Wish there was a way to
easilypoison the inputBut sadly this’ll just be reality. The only thing we can do is either not use it or embrace it.
We’ve already seen AI fall for obvious jokes, like whether you can melt an egg or put pineapple on pizza.
i have seen others hide prompts via small text and unicode characters that make invisible text. I imagine you could also use unicode characters that look exactly like normal characters, these characters then maybe messing with tokenization or something.
the problem is that any text that will fuck with AI scrapers, will also fuck with screen readers
Ah. did not realize that, thank you
What is stopping corpos from scraping everyone’s posts and stuff from the fediverse and train their AI?
That very real and enforceable “this comment cannot be used to train AI” crap some people add to every comment that definitely makes bots not scrape the comment, of course!
But that can poison the AI to some degree.
Kinda? Not really, though. If anything it, the model’s response would just include “anti-commercial license” at the end and they’d get rid of that with further training
Most likely someone at the AI company would catch it and filter those strings out of the training data.
I’ll sue them in small claims court as a pro se litigant demanding a jury trial. I will also try to file motions every other week, which will probably fail and ask the judge to give me time to correct them. I will make them waste thousands on attourneys fees and be a royal pain in the ass.
Good luck getting a court to hear it when you won’t have a shred of evidence to show
The fun part is that they have to and they give pro se litigants more leeway. It’s a huge pita.
1 - You can block/ignore entire instances. (spamming ones)
2 - If it gets big enough, you’ll see legit instances band together and federate only among themselves (white-list, invite only to allow federation)
people will gravitate to these groups of instances if they are well moderated and keep that crap out.
Threads is trying to become that. We have a list of instances blocking Threads here: https://fedipact.veganism.social/
Reminder that LW does not block Threads.net : https://lemmy.world/instances
Has anyone even seen Threads content anywhere? I’m not blocking Threads on my instance either. Neither am I blocking Nazi instances. Not because I endorse either of those things. Just because I have never even seen them. Easy enough to rectify if they ever pop up.
Given how many users threads claims, I suspect threads members must be de facto limited to threads communities. Even if they can, technically, subscribe to regular lemmy communities, how would they discover them? “320 million” threads users vs 65,000? 100,000? lemmy users? And community search is going to be flooded with options from the platform with 2000x more users.
I never see anything from threads anywhere… search results, cable news, etc. Who’s using it even?
Threads users cannot subscribe or post to Lemmy communities or follow Mastodon users (yet). Threads has a sort of halfway federation situation. Mastodon users can follow Threads users without having a Threads.net account but that’s it.
Also, the ability to allow Mastodon users to follow Threads accounts is opt-in, and only a small portion of users have chosen to do so.
Threads doesn’t have groups iirc.
You won’t see it on Lemmy because there is no way to follow individual users on Lemmy. Here’s an example of viewing a Threads user from my instance. There is no content because Kara cannot interact with Lemmy and Lemmy users can’t follow her.
On Mastodon, Threads accounts (or any account) won’t federate to your instance until you (or someone on your instance) specifically requests to follow. It’s a common misunderstanding when people think that federating with Threads.net will “overwhelm” a small instance.
Also, not every Threads account has opted into federation. So there’s really very little available content out there.
What is stopping corpos from scraping everyone’s posts and stuff from the fediverse and train their AI?
Nothing. And they already have.
What’s stopping them then, to create loads of not accounts and spam / disrupt smaller communities?
Moderation.
When an instances quality drops, the users may be more incentivised to migrate to bigger instances and go there.
Why would they do that when every instance has the same content?
Corpos can flood the fediverse with ads
I mean they can but no one would subscribe to them or share them, so no one would see them, so why would they bother making them?
about how certain countries behave. I feel the true evil are the corporates.
Sometimes the two are actually one in the same.
