NOTICE:
I realise now that the main problem here was my post on Hexbear, It was shitty and failed to get across my actual views. I still wish I could’ve been allowed to properly discuss it, but I understand the decision to ban me. Looking at my original post, I can very much get why that is ban worthy, even though that wouldn’t be my decision. What happened happened, as much as I’d like to further expand upon my views, I’ll try not to waste your time by trying to explain my views that I fully do not understand, that I’ve developed throughout the process of arguing with people in the comments. I feel silly for making this such a big deal, sorry. You could look through my replies here to see a further expounded on version of this post here. It really boils down to misunderstanding and semantics, I agree with most of the substance of the comments on this post on their face, it is just that often argued in favour of things I didn’t mean to. My view of anti-Semitism boils down to, yes it is present, but it is not systemic. As I already mentioned, you can look through the replies if you want to see more of that
Click here to view the original version of this post
I recently made a post that, according to the moderator which banned me, “conflated Judaism with Zionism”. The post did not in any way conflate Judaism with Zionism, it was me being tired of people trying to center anti-Semitism and over inflate the presence it has in society.
It had an inflammatory title, “I don’t give a shit about anti-Semitism”, which I can get why people would find problematic. But the text if the post was not in any way conflating Zionism with Judaism. I explained the reasons for the rise in anti-Semitism, the genocide the Israeli state is carrying out, and why I am tired of people acting like it is of most importance.
Jewish people are not systemically oppressed, they’ve been integrated into Western society, into whiteness. What has happened to Jewish people and their assimilation is similar to the experience of Italians and the Irish (in America). There will be no Holocaust 2.0, Jewish people in NYC are not at threat of being lynched. The victim mentality and the centering of the Jewish experience only plays into Jewish supremacism, Zionism. Jews are not special, it shouldn’t be controversial to say that.
I’ll repeat the analogy I made in the original post: Imagine if your main concern was the safety of German minorities after they did the Holocaust. It’s completely ridiculous and shouldn’t be taken seriously.
I suspect the main reason for the “conflating Zionism with Judaism” part is me saying most Jewish people support Israel, which Is a fact. I pointed this out as a reason for the (over-exaggerated) rise in anti-Semitism. I did not even once state anything in opposition to Judaism and Jewishness in in of itself, only gave reasons to the generalisations. I can forgive someone taking this as somehow conflating the two in the context of, I repeat, the inflammatory title, but what I said wasn’t in any way remotely that.
To quote Prof. Finkelstein, on when he asked his mother if she had ever met a decent German:
I remembered one German soldier, he had a kind of a guilty look on his face.
That was all she could remember—one. So it doesn’t surprise me that she loathed all Germans.
This is what I was getting at. A common response to seeing a genocide committed by Jews is, albeit irrationally, to loathe all Jews. Just like, for a time, people hated all Germans. To center the hate towards Germans in the post war years would be seen as ridiculous, rightfully so. Even more ridiculous is to imply this will somehow transfer into violent lynchings.
People like us should know that Zionism and Nazism are not contradictory ideologies, they can coexist and work together (and have historically). So why (I am referencing the replies to my post, not the moderator who banned me) is it that people think Elon throwing a sieg heil is a sign of an imminent Holocaust in the USA? The main donor of Trump is a Jewish Zionist. I repeat, Jews are not at threat. It is ridiculous and, as I already said, plays into Jewish supremacy.
In the brief period where the post was up, I did not receive any real counter arguments, only people flinging insults who clearly either did not understand the text I wrote or didn’t even read through it. I was then of course banned. I expected the forum named @askchapo to be open to discussion. I am sure if I had an actual conversation on the topic with the moderator who banned me, I’d either be able to convince them of the content of the post, or have my own mind changed.
Bans shouldn’t just be thrown around like that, especially considering the content of my post. The text giving reason to the ban was a single sentence, it did not touch on the content of the post. Just “conflating Judaism with Zionism”, that’s it. No specific line of text was noted.
At last I’d like to add that the post was primarily in response to liberal Zionists like Owen Jones and other such figures, not to fellow leftists. Figures who disingenuously over inflate the importance of anti-Semitism, its presence and general effect.
I fully agree that anti-Semitism usually leads right back into far-right ideologies that are in staunch opposition to us, but that is not what I was trying to argue against in the post.
Click here to view the post on Hexbear
I understand your point of view, and I’ve made similar arguments before (not all of them though LOL)
I remember reading (but can’t find) a poll showing that ~85% of Jewish people in Europe support “israel” even when 60% of them said that they condemn / were embarrassed in what “israel” was doing.
I’ve had the same discussions with my partner who is Jewish (and I’m Palestinian, hah!). Yes, a lot of reported “antisemitism” is just anti-zionism. Yes, antisemitism does not occur as much as other forms of hate (Islamophobia, racism against blacks, asians, latinos, etc), but I wouldn’t go as far as saying that antisemitism isn’t an issue.
Yes you could even say that Jewish people did manage to integrate well into white society, but that really only applies to Ashkenazis. But I wouldn’t say that privilege is impossible to revoke. The most antisemitic people support israel because they can send their jewish populations there when the time comes. They are perfectly fine working with jewish people when it comes to establishing and protecting a state, but I would disagree that they are integrated at all.
There is no integration with these racists. They focus on oppressing the easiest-to-oppress class. Nazi Germany did it with Gays, Romanis, Slavs, Jewish, the disabled. Each of these groups were minority groups, the same way America has oppressed indigenous populations, blacks, latinos, gays, japanese, and muslims / arabs.
The oppression will never end, but they will go up the “caste”, so to speak. They will oppress the “weakest” minority before moving on to the next, and they don’t have to be weak, they just have to be able to convince the rest of their followers and centrists that this minority group deserves to be put into internment camps / genocided / deported.
Right now we have Muslims, Latinos, Haitians, and the LGBTQ being targeted by this administration. But if the oppression continues, and they get to be able to round us all up or deport us to CECOT, the job isn’t done there.
Next they’ll find another population to oppress, Blacks, Asians, Jewish people. After that they’ll target anyone who isn’t a protestant or other characteristic that they decide makes one less “pure” than they are.
The oppression won’t ever really end; Jewish people may seem to be safer than Latinos, Gays, and Muslims currently, but they will not have this privilege forever if the fascists get their way.
You can also argue that “israel” has corrupted many Jewish minds in America. My partner’s father is old as shit and he even said himself that after the establishment of “israel” his Hebrew school began to split their focus on religion AND “israel”.
While I believe it is abhorrent for anyone to support “israel” after witnessing the horrors they’ve committed, I do think it would be more productive to discuss intersectionality with a Jewish person than it is to scream at them for supporting the settler-colony.
I will also give my own (unwanted) anecdotal evidence and say I have met more anti-zionist Jewish people than I have zionist Jewish people. Maybe it’s who I hang around, but even random interactions with strangers who are Jewish that have shown solidarity.
Please let me know if you want to discuss more!