Patriarchy and capitalism go hand in hand. We are still saying the same thing. You do not know what those words mean. You take it as patronizing because it would be silly for you to not know what that word means.

Except it’s not silly. It’s extremely common. That’s why there’s a whole academic theory about it. False consciousness. It’s a very hard thing to break yourself out of. It’s kinda like alcoholic rehab. The first step is admitting you are in it and beginning to deconstruct it.

Our entire society is built in reinforcing these false consciousness. It is very very difficult to break them. As I said in another thread to you. I hope this is a seed of words and ideas that hopefully someone who speaks your language better will water and sprout into understanding.

I’m sorry that this is all sounding patronizing and elitist and whatever else that makes you feel small. I genuinely do. Please take everything I have said how I intended it. With love and hope and empathy and understanding.

Look. We are talking in circles. So let me leave you off with a quote from one of the most famous feminist writers, Bell Hooks.

It is obvious that many women have appropriated feminism to serve their own ends, especially those white women who have been at the forefront of the movement; but rather than resigning myself to this appropriation I choose to re-appropriate the term ‘feminism’, to focus on the fact that to be ‘feminist’ in any authentic sense of the term is to want for all people, female and male, liberation from sexist role patterns, domination, and oppression. – Ain’t I A Woman: Black Women and Feminism, 1981

Like I said. You are stuck in a mind loop called a false consciousness. I was unable to break you out of it this conversation. I hope that this conversation is a seed in your brain that someday, someone else more able to speak your language waters and sprouts into understanding.

Please understand. You are not talking about “women”. You are talking about patriarchy. You are complaining about patriarchy. You are complaining about women who are also stuck in the same patriarchy false consciousness as you are, but from the other side. Your talk about women and greed is a complex intersection of patriarchy and capitalism. They effect each other and support each other.

I genuinely hope you take that extra step towards understanding and abandon your misogynist lens. It is doing more harm to you than you know.

That’s not what I am saying. Women and men can rise above those expectations. It’s called feminism.

Wrong, you just described patriarchy. You do not know what that word means. You understand it as “men good, women bad”. You described an aspect of patriarchy as it effects both women’s expectations of men and men’s expectations of women.

Of course everyone is responsible for their own actions. However when discussing the way a group of people, especially such a wide one as half the population, you use terms that accurately describe the ideologies at work rather than the group itself. Because to do so builds stereotypes and reinforces false consciousness related to that group. In your case, you are stuck in the male patriarchal false consciousness that is clouding your ability to see that we are saying the same thing.

Brother, you are right now repeating the most common, basic and wrong male anti feminist talking points as you talk about how women are so baby brained that they can’t think.

It ain’t hyperbole. It’s academic theory. You are so caught up in not using the word you don’t like. I am telling you that you don’t know what that word means. I explain what it means. You then repeat “no” and then say the same thing but in a misogynist lens.

There’s even non misogynist ways to explain the “operating as one unit” borg brain you are talking about. It’s just the women’s side of patriarchy. That’s a built in function of patriarchy. You have a hard time seeing that because you are not a woman and have a flawed concept of the word patriarchy. Do you get what I’m saying?

I should also note. The concept you are referring to as “they can’t think for themselves” is called False Consciousness. The idea that oppressive systems like patriarchy and capitalism create this sense that you are acting with complete free will but you actually are following a set of expectations and thoughts and even language that feedback loops on itself in a never ending reinforcement loop.

It’s like, your right at the core of what your saying. There is truth there. But you use such anti women language rather than targeting the systems, ideologies and incentives that make both men and women this way.

That’s still not disagreeing with me though. You are agreeing fundamentally with what I am saying, but you don’t understand what the words mean. You have a false consciousness of your own that is at this moment blocking you from understanding what mean by “patriarchy”.

The only difference in what we are saying is that you don’t know the big fancy words and theory backing it up and instead replace it with anti women language that you have picked up and understood. At the core, past the language and operating on pure ideas, we are saying the same thing.

You are still just complaining about the intersection of patriarchy and capitalism. What you are saying is feminist theory. We are still in agreement here, though I disagree with the way you word it.

For example. You say that the average women wants to live like Instagram models. You are right, but that is due to patriarchy creating the cultural expectations that men are unable to meet in the modern world due to capitalisms squeeze. It is women simply trying to meet their side of the expectation.

Feminism is in part about how patriarchy binds both genders by expectations. People generally focus on the way it binds women. However it fucks men over as well. We are expected to have money, we are expected to “provide” weather in the classical sense of a family or in the modern sense of just having the money to meet consumerist whims, it doesn’t really matter which one your talking about, it’s still patriarchy.

When patriarchy is normally discussed it’s about how men are privileged and women are oppressed. And while even as a, as the incels like to say, “low value man” you do have some societal privileges, it is very often ignored that patriarchy oppresses us men as well for not meeting those expectations. In this case, having money. Which we don’t because capitalism funnels money into fewer and fewer hands, making fewer and fewer men able to achieve those expectations.

I hope I explained this well and didn’t talk in too many circles. Like I said. Wombo combo of capitalism and patriarchy that tag team to fuck over men.

Take your time. Ill be here, willing to talk the best I can.

But that’s not women’s fault, that’s patriarchys fault for instilling into men on a deep cultural level that they need to make money to “provide” and then capitalism exploiting us workers so hard that that “providing” goal is impossible for a lot of us.

A lot of men deal with that insecurity by entering hustle grindset mindsets. Others get taken advantage of by right wing groups and say it’s women’s expectations at fault, not understanding that feminism also combats that expectation.

The point being, patriarchy binds us all, men and women with its expectations, and capitalism has made meeting those expectations impossible for a lot of people resulting in a double wombo combo of fucking men over.

I do not think it’s worth acknowledging a difference in opinion when the problem at its core is the difference in what those words mean. I don’t think we have a difference in opinion. I think he does not know what I or the article mean. If someone could just find the words to tell him in a way he understands then I feel we would be surprised to see that no disagreement existed in the first place.

Now to find the words…

Let me try this again in light of trying to meet you where you are at instead of just saying “wrong” and moving on.

What do you think the article meant by its title? What do you think it ment by “capitalism” so we can be on the same page.

He’s being down voted because he had an uninformed and uncritical response to a valid point. Not because of a difference in opinion but because he entered a conversation with the sole intent of saying “not me”, clearly showing he didn’t even begin to engage in any way with the topic.

It is disingenuous to call it a difference in opinion.

However, conversation is good, and I appreciate your attempt at getting him to put some more thought into the topic. It’s something I need to be better at myself rather than being snippy.

In that spirit of conversation I do wanna say that I think focusing on different versions of capitalism misses the point of the topic as well. It isn’t about laissez faire vs more regulated systems. It’s that the incentives regardless of the specific system of capitalism seek to squeeze wealth out of every orifice. It’s a constant struggle between the oppressed being squeezed and the squeezers doing the squeezing.

What does this have to do with feminism and whatnot? Well you see, due to the endless squeezing, men have lost the ability to do the thing they have been told their whole life to do. Provide. This has happened at the same time as women and LGBT rights becoming more and more equal. Due to this, many right wing groups prey on men’s insecurity with their lack of ability to “provide” and blame that changing world on the fact women and queer folk are more open and equal.

As if putting women in the kitchen and queer folk in the closet will revert the economic status of those men back to the time when women were forced to be in the kitchen and queer folk were forced in the closet.

This is the topic. To say to all that “I don’t hate capitalism” is to fundamentally not understand the topic at all. Conversation is good, but to conversate we need to have a common topic and a common language to communicate ideas about that topic. A language that the person you replied to does not have as shown by his non-understanding of what was even said.

This is called a false consciousness. It’s a natural outcome to oppressive systems to take people within it and give them a language incompatible with people outside of that same false consciousness. Conversation becomes difficult because what I mean by capitalism and what he means by capitalism are fundamentally different.

Both I and the article are using the academic meaning. Meanwhile he thinks we mean like, Owning a house as capitalism.

As I said before, I need to be better at engaging people and being less snippy and just pointing and saying “your wrong and here’s why”. Meeting people where they are is my goal but I’m not quite there.

Anyways, good luck with your attempt. Sorry that I talked so much. Please take it with genuine love that I want to give it with.

You think differently because you don’t understand what you are thinking about. You think you do, but you don’t. It’s called false consciousness. Which our world is full of as oppressive systems such as capitalism naturally make use of false consciousness.

This is to say, you don’t know what capitalism is.

If you think communism put capitalisms sins to shame then you don’t know what capitalism has done.

Then you don’t know what capitalism is.

He’s a business guy in the derogatory sense. A money man who only gives a shit about clout and dosh. He’s also anti union. Which should say enough

Can you find me a person in China who will tell you that’s true or did you pick that up from memes of people posting Winnie the Pooh xi?

You learned in highschool what a reliable source is and “cultural osmosis” is not a valid source.

China is… A country. America is… A country. Can we just talk about them without braindead nonsense noise like you?

“haha if you say tiananmen square in a league of legends match the Chinese get banned” is your source

I love how people just say this. Like you know lol