Hi everyone, I am looking for an encrypted messaging service to start using and recommending to my friends and family, I really want to get this right the first time. At the moment I’m looking at using matrix I really like it’s bridges and federated nature, Although I’m not 100% sure about it’s ux.
What I want to ask is what messaging service do you use and do you have any regrets with it? What encrypted messaging service would you recommended?
Edit: I just had another question are any of the bridges in matrix end to end encrypted? If person A used matrix and person B used signal could person A use a bridge to talk to person B securely?
Just a note that there’s an in development fediverse app called ‘sup’ by the creators of pixelfed. It’s not released yet but is going to be encrypted and Open Source. https://mastodon.social/@dansup/113912441928236882
Signal for your family (mostly due to interface), Matrix for online communities, and SimplexChat if you’re trying to be a privacy extremist. I did have some success with setting simplexchat up for some old people over the phone because they didn’t need an account.
Rolled up scrolls attached to foxes
Listn, I don’t mind occasionally moving your scrolls back and forth, but if you would attach them to my back instead of my legs it would make it a lot easier OK.
I’d consider Signal to be the gold standard of secure communications.
You can describe it to them like WhatsApp, except it’s private, secure, not Facebook-owned, nonprofit so it can’t be bought or sold, etc.
Here’s the blog post that I share with my friends comparing Signal to iMessage and WhatsApp when they ask me about it.
It usually answers most of their questions.
Recommending to friends and family means Signal. With a phone number they can start using the gold standard for encryption from the get go.
Matrix, xmpp, simplex. Do not use Signal or any service with centralized servers hosted in a 5 eyes country.
Seconding simplex. Having a built in way to obfuscate IP is very nice. But its more for privacy extremism and small group chats for people in vulnerable situations, matrix is best for most situations e.g. community and interest groups. I also had some ease with setting up simplex with my grandma, funny enough. Not needing to make an account made it much easier for her.
Hope Lemmy gets a simplexchat field one day!
Deltachat 100%
I just moved to Signal and have convinced most of my family and many friends to join. It is very secure, non-profit and doesn’t share much personal data (the least of the main messaging services) and most of my luddite family has been able to figure it out.
signal or SimpleX.
I’m starting to move away from Matrix, primarily because its metadata is not encrypted. So you might have a message that’s encrypted, but the emoji reaction like a thumbs up is not encrypted, and the time it was sent and received is not encrypted, and who it was sent from and to is not encrypted.
Not to mention that in Matrix, private key management for encryption in rooms and stuff like that is quite frankly a pain in the ass. Even I as a cryptocurrency user have trouble making sure that my keys are properly stored without fucking them up.
I would not recommend my friends or family members use it for these reasons.
Signal is the easiest with true end to end encryption with keys stored on the endpoints only.
I got my mother on XMPP - if you set the person’s account up, Conversations is as easy to use as Whatsapp or Signal, but doesn’t have the central server dependence.
People will dislike this:
The most basic one with little barrier to entry is imessage. Theres a good chance your friends and family already have it and with a few setting changes (no sms fallback, set icloud recovery key, probably some stuff I forgot) you’re damn near at parity with signal.
All without dad having to download a new app onto his phone and make a new identity!
Of course you’ll need signal or something for people who don’t use it.
I use that combination and it’s excellent. If you can be on imessage with someone you’re good and everything works, if not you do signal.
There will be people you gotta use sms with. They just won’t be able or willing to do something new. Sometimes there’s an equipment problem, their super old provider version of android can’t get an app you both agree on. Sometimes they’re using a Nokia.
Interacting with sms often may help keep you on your toes about it. I know I’m more careful over text now.
That combination, imessage and signal, also has a benefit of reducing the chances that you’ll broadcast an awareness of and desire for privacy and security to the whole world all the time.
In the us, there’s a 50% chance you just look like a normal person and that’s nothing to sneeze at.
Make sure it meets your needs of course
little barrier to entry
$1000+
The barrier to entry was intended to refer to others since it’s already installed on over half their phones to start with and most people are gonna be using a messaging program on their phone.
When there’s above a 50% chance the person you’re talking to is already using a particular encrypted messaging program that’s the lowest barrier to entry.
The barrier to entry always refers to other people because the hardest part of establishing private communications has always been convincing other people to actually do it.
If you really wanted to get on imessage for the least amount of cash out of pocket possible, the bluebubble bridge application random letters person mentioned is ~$100 for an old mac, and tbh that’s a high estimate in my experience. People are just giving those things away nowadays.
But most people would be excluded because they don’t have an iPhone or even funds to buy one! And would have no real way to participate! Maybe some older secondhand models would go below $300, I don’t know, but it would be weird to expect a person to buy a second phone (and an older, more worn-down one at that) just to converse with you. Even $100 is also a pretty high price just to bypass an arbitrary restriction.
There is a reason the most popular messengers are cross-platform. So the aim must be that.
If you’re in america almost sixty percent of phones are ios.
If you’re choosing an encrypted chat and sixty percent of people are already using it then that’s the one you choose. The hardest thing is compliance and you’re almost two thirds of the way there if you just pay a hundred bucks (or scrounge up an old mac) and run the bridge app. Then you use signal for everything else.
I think we’re looking at this from fundamentally different perspectives. I’m not worried about a universal solution because I know I’m not getting to 100% compliance with any solution so I suggested the one that immediately fixes the majority of the problem. Having had to convince people to exchange pgp keys twenty five years ago, I’d pay a hundred bucks to not have to deal with that for two thirds of the people I know.
Think about it this way: if you were starting from scratch would you rather have to convince all your contacts to move their chats with you to signal or matrix or whatever or would you rather have to convince four out of ten to do that?
Obviously you’d pick the easier thing because no matter how committed you may be to not using proprietary software or big corporate apps or fragmented ecosystems you actually have to accomplish the goal of chatting with people using encryption and all the process compliance and wheedling and convincing and tech support for family members is time you could be spending talking about gardening, sharing baby pictures, plotting to overthrow the government or whatever you would normally be doing.
Sixty percent still leaves about a half excluded and left without a cheap and conveniwnt way to participate. You think it is fair in any way?
Also a hundred bucks is a very steep price just for a messenger. Even Threema’s cheap price is seen as an adoption hurdle, this would make people wonder why you can’t just use a free app. Worst-case scanario, they’d just go back to Whatsapp.
You’d want to make adoption as seamless as possible - and yet you’re telling people they have to pay a big price (in a crisis time especially) and set some weird bridge up? They would think “Why can’t we just use something botherless?”
As I said, use signal for everything else.
If immediately getting sixty percent of your chats encrypted isn’t worth a hundred bucks to you I don’t know what to say. We’re looking at this from fundamentally different perspectives. I’m trying to meet a goal to solve a problem and you’re trying to find the fair solution.
It’s good to try to find the fair solution.
Ah, you mean $100 just for you and then everyone in your family would be able to use it? Still a very steep price but at least you’re not forcing anyone else to pay it. I just thought about messaging not just between family members and you, but between other family members as well.
Edit: just realized what else I wanted to say. It’s that the iPhone users are used to havung to install separate apps from iMessage anyway - for their friends and family members not on Apple.
If you’re on Android, as well, look into BlueBubbles. It bridges iMessage from a MacOS system to most any device/OS. I’ve used it for years now with my partner’s family with very little issue (all of which were resolved with a restart).
Hard part is getting a MacOS system. I started with a VM, but eventually landed on a ~$100 Mac Mini 2014. Both solutions worked well, but the former is against Apple’s TOS and requires spoofing things, so it’s ultimately much less reliable than actual hardware.
Signal
Yup echoing most here. Unless you or someone you are paying are willing to put time and effort in to maintaining Matrix, go with Signal. It’s like WhatsApp but actually secure and is appropriate for the vast majority of use cases.
If no one’s on any kind of private messaging platform, SimpleX is good and fairly easy to use. But I mostly use Signal just because everyone’s on it.
Also consider your threat model; Signal is appropriate for just casual personal conversations, but it is centralised and not self-hostable. The servers are run by the Signal org who are based in the US. If the potential of message metadata (which can be used to eg create networks of who’s messaging who) getting into the hands of the US state could create significant issues for you, you may want to at least find either a decentralised or self-hostable solution which is not so US-centric. I assume, though, since you’re talking to these people on non-private platforms, that these are not super sensitive discussions anyway.
