Eh. I agree with the sentiment, but it’s weaker behavior than the instant punch. You implicitly agree that “fucking whore” is an insult, if you do that.
People are acting like this doesn’t happen in pro hockey sometimes too.
I haven’t actually watched it in many years but I used to be a big fan, and every now and then someone would do or say something so egregious, that they’d get sucker punched (or something worse like slashed in the face with a hockey stick). And the person who did it would usually get kicked out of the game for it. But his teammates and the fans that knew what was up would support them as they skated off.
Weaker behavior? I do applaud the kid putting the aspiring frat bro in his place, but equating aggression with strength is bonkers. There are other, better ways for educating fools than a damn sucker punch.
By this logic it’s ok for anyone to just walk around punching people that offend their moral views.
No.
It’s not about offending moral views in abstract. It’s about specific assholes that put their “moral views” into violent action. When someone is violent, it’s proof they don’t see their victim as a person.
Therefore it IS ok for anyone to just walk around punching people who instigate oppressive violence.
Also, please don’t fall for the paradox of tolerance, I will lose a lot of respect for you.
I think you would be right not to respect me, I’m quite a shit person. Anyway, as we are commenting a post about a kids hockey game here, I think jumping to violence as a first corrective action is a bit much. I guess it’s impossible to say what age the players were in the anecdote for sure, so if they are something like sixteen or seventeen then go ahead, the jackass had his opportunities to learn civil behavior. The image in my mind was of something like 8 year olds, and even if I think the initiative to help is admirable even then, I really think we should try to raise our children to learn respect before resorting to violence. Or rather, in my stupid idealist mind I want to see people who don’t consider violence as a solution at all.
Makes me hate the world and hate myself, but it is what it is.
Hey, it’s been a while, but I didn’t have time to write, and I didn’t want to half-ass this response.
First things first, i wanted to be completely clear: your approach, and the perspective you’re taking on on this issue, is admirable. It’s truly, very good.
You're viewing this situation, and these children, as a guardian.
(your use of the idea of “corrective action”, shows this perspective. “Corrective action” is taken by someone who takes responsibility to change the actions of someone else. Therefore someone with power over the other person, which, if you’re an adult, you objectively have.)
You’re mentally placing yourself in the position of a person with more power than them, and then actually taking on the emotional and intellectual responsibility to think about what would be best for them, how to protect them and help them grow. That’s objectively a great thing to be doing. You’re saying you’re a shit person, but, for what it’s worth, this internet stranger doesn’t think so. I think you’re, deeply, a good person.
My approach to this story, instead, has been looking at it from the perspective of peers. Whether we are talking about 15 year olds, or 8 year olds.
Being plenty queer myself, I’m kinda biased, because all too often, I see the cases of harmed girls and women, devolve into abstract conversations about “the ethics” of how the men of the story treat each other, and “what’s the better way to educate” the person inflicting the harm, when that feels like a backwards priority. So, honestly, I often lean aggressive on my approach. I’m this case, I would, exactly, nudge you to think about it, from what the girl would see in front of her, whether as a teen, or a little 8 year old girl.
What conclusions about life would the girl would come to, in the various hypothetical scenarios, after being called a fucking whore at the start of a game? Primarily, about “what her place is, in this world”. After all, if everything is healthy and good, she doesn’t see the boy throwing the punch as someone “greater”/more powerful/more important than her. She probably sees him as a friend, a peer. And his actions, therefore, influence how she sees herself, and the validity of the thing she got called. She is going to be absorbing, whether her peer considers the action of the opposing boy calling her a whore, as “violence”, or “just harmful opinion”.
It’s, objectively a difficult situation, I think, no matter what.
As a final, unimportant comment, I wanted to say another thing. Your mind isn’t “stupid idealist”. The desire to care for and love the people you live amongst, and be respected and cared for in return, is one of the deepest parts of our humanity.
Politics tangent
(Incidentally, the idea that that desire is “stupid idealism”, is literal, cultivated, right-wing authoritarian propaganda. Lots of money have been spent historically, to ensure it sounds like common sense. People are much more profitable and controllable, when they’re ashamed of the fact that they have love as a core value).
However, wanting to see people who don’t consider violence as a solution at all, while neither stupid, nor idealist, it is a kind of privileged desire. It’s what you’re able to desire, when you live in a world of relative peers, in terms of power.
When someone is objectively stronger than you, economically, politically, physically, or in any other way… You don’t have the choice to opt out of violence. The woman being raped, cannot discuss or argue her way out, no matter the amount of respect she shows.
Despite saying all that and my disagreement, I definitely think you’re still a very good person, on a very good path. Don’t beat yourself up that much about it, just keep your eyes open and keep learning. The ways out of this bullshit are not easy, but they exist.
Thanks for this, I’m not sure how long it’s been since someone took the time to say they appreciate anything about me in that many words, it was nice.
I tried to write a longer message to show that I really do understand your points, but would still prefer softer intervention in most cases, but kept deleting everything I typed over and over because I felt like I’m oversharing. Anyway, I think a person who the bullies respect showing kindness to the bullied, and disapproval for the bullshit, is a lot more impactful than instant violent retribution. Still, there are people in this world who have made a conscious choice of making their life about bringing misery to others, and those people I’d gladly see cut down without mercy. Class solidarity in a way, I guess.
Eh. I agree with the sentiment, but it’s weaker behavior than the instant punch. You implicitly agree that “fucking whore” is an insult, if you do that.
People are acting like this doesn’t happen in pro hockey sometimes too.
I haven’t actually watched it in many years but I used to be a big fan, and every now and then someone would do or say something so egregious, that they’d get sucker punched (or something worse like slashed in the face with a hockey stick). And the person who did it would usually get kicked out of the game for it. But his teammates and the fans that knew what was up would support them as they skated off.
If it was said with the intent to insult, it’s an insult.
The intent to insult, is an insult itself, sure.
But the content may be, or not be. The “fucking whore” insult, as content, is a misogynistic insult.
Weaker behavior? I do applaud the kid putting the aspiring frat bro in his place, but equating aggression with strength is bonkers. There are other, better ways for educating fools than a damn sucker punch.
No.
Fuck off. By this logic it’s ok for anyone to just walk around punching people that offend their moral views, sensible or not.
No.
It’s not about offending moral views in abstract. It’s about specific assholes that put their “moral views” into violent action. When someone is violent, it’s proof they don’t see their victim as a person.
Therefore it IS ok for anyone to just walk around punching people who instigate oppressive violence.
Also, please don’t fall for the paradox of tolerance, I will lose a lot of respect for you.
Those people should be punched.
I think you would be right not to respect me, I’m quite a shit person. Anyway, as we are commenting a post about a kids hockey game here, I think jumping to violence as a first corrective action is a bit much. I guess it’s impossible to say what age the players were in the anecdote for sure, so if they are something like sixteen or seventeen then go ahead, the jackass had his opportunities to learn civil behavior. The image in my mind was of something like 8 year olds, and even if I think the initiative to help is admirable even then, I really think we should try to raise our children to learn respect before resorting to violence. Or rather, in my stupid idealist mind I want to see people who don’t consider violence as a solution at all.
Makes me hate the world and hate myself, but it is what it is.
Hey, it’s been a while, but I didn’t have time to write, and I didn’t want to half-ass this response.
First things first, i wanted to be completely clear: your approach, and the perspective you’re taking on on this issue, is admirable. It’s truly, very good.
You're viewing this situation, and these children, as a guardian.
(your use of the idea of “corrective action”, shows this perspective. “Corrective action” is taken by someone who takes responsibility to change the actions of someone else. Therefore someone with power over the other person, which, if you’re an adult, you objectively have.)
You’re mentally placing yourself in the position of a person with more power than them, and then actually taking on the emotional and intellectual responsibility to think about what would be best for them, how to protect them and help them grow. That’s objectively a great thing to be doing. You’re saying you’re a shit person, but, for what it’s worth, this internet stranger doesn’t think so. I think you’re, deeply, a good person.
My approach to this story, instead, has been looking at it from the perspective of peers. Whether we are talking about 15 year olds, or 8 year olds.
Being plenty queer myself, I’m kinda biased, because all too often, I see the cases of harmed girls and women, devolve into abstract conversations about “the ethics” of how the men of the story treat each other, and “what’s the better way to educate” the person inflicting the harm, when that feels like a backwards priority. So, honestly, I often lean aggressive on my approach. I’m this case, I would, exactly, nudge you to think about it, from what the girl would see in front of her, whether as a teen, or a little 8 year old girl.
What conclusions about life would the girl would come to, in the various hypothetical scenarios, after being called a fucking whore at the start of a game? Primarily, about “what her place is, in this world”. After all, if everything is healthy and good, she doesn’t see the boy throwing the punch as someone “greater”/more powerful/more important than her. She probably sees him as a friend, a peer. And his actions, therefore, influence how she sees herself, and the validity of the thing she got called. She is going to be absorbing, whether her peer considers the action of the opposing boy calling her a whore, as “violence”, or “just harmful opinion”.
It’s, objectively a difficult situation, I think, no matter what.
As a final, unimportant comment, I wanted to say another thing. Your mind isn’t “stupid idealist”. The desire to care for and love the people you live amongst, and be respected and cared for in return, is one of the deepest parts of our humanity.
Politics tangent
(Incidentally, the idea that that desire is “stupid idealism”, is literal, cultivated, right-wing authoritarian propaganda. Lots of money have been spent historically, to ensure it sounds like common sense. People are much more profitable and controllable, when they’re ashamed of the fact that they have love as a core value).
However, wanting to see people who don’t consider violence as a solution at all, while neither stupid, nor idealist, it is a kind of privileged desire. It’s what you’re able to desire, when you live in a world of relative peers, in terms of power.
When someone is objectively stronger than you, economically, politically, physically, or in any other way… You don’t have the choice to opt out of violence. The woman being raped, cannot discuss or argue her way out, no matter the amount of respect she shows.
Despite saying all that and my disagreement, I definitely think you’re still a very good person, on a very good path. Don’t beat yourself up that much about it, just keep your eyes open and keep learning. The ways out of this bullshit are not easy, but they exist.
Thanks for this, I’m not sure how long it’s been since someone took the time to say they appreciate anything about me in that many words, it was nice.
I tried to write a longer message to show that I really do understand your points, but would still prefer softer intervention in most cases, but kept deleting everything I typed over and over because I felt like I’m oversharing. Anyway, I think a person who the bullies respect showing kindness to the bullied, and disapproval for the bullshit, is a lot more impactful than instant violent retribution. Still, there are people in this world who have made a conscious choice of making their life about bringing misery to others, and those people I’d gladly see cut down without mercy. Class solidarity in a way, I guess.