I think it’s great that you’ve helped people in need. I’m sorry you were abused. That’s awful no matter the circumstances.
I’m not sure why you’re bringing up men crying and being vulnerable. I support anyone expressing their emotions in healthy ways and I’ve not seen people here say otherwise. Are you just sharing your personal experience or was this related to something?
I would hope most people can say yes to the last bit. It’s more or less the basis of civil society.
I am not looking for validation from you, as it is obvious from the start you aren’t interested in empathizing with a man, please stop talking to me like you just finished your BA in Psych or Social Work and are talking to a troubled teen.
You are intentionally playing dumb and trying to psychoanalyze me, to avoid addressing the actual totality of what I have said.
This is disrespectful.
It is a fairly basic and well understood fact that men tend to value respect and perceptions of being respected significantly more than women, on average.
…
I said what I said as a direct response to your response, to being asked:
‘What are men supposed to do with this besides feel bad?’
Your response was essentially:
Men shouldn’t feel bad about this.
and
Be an ally to women.
…
Ok, so…
For the first part, you are just outright denying men the capacity or right to … feel a certain way, express emotions about an experience they had.
This is fundamentally at odds with the conception of tearing down the enforced gender normativity of patriarchy, a huge element of which is men stuffing down their emotions, being told when and how and what they’re allowed to have emotions about, which is generally: suck it up buttercup, your feelings don’t matter, your emotions are not valid.
You are directly mandating all men abide by this rule.
You are directly enforcing the patriarchy, toxic masculinity.
…
For the second part,
I’ve been an ally to women (and many others) for 20 years.
Call that my sense of honor.
So have many other men.
I gave you an anecdote, a case study of one, my lived experience of how that worked out for me.
It didn’t work for me personally, and it isn’t working at a broader societal scale either.
The ‘gender wars’ are intsensifying, male incel edgelord culture got a fascist kleptocracy elected to run the US government, more and more marriages are failing and more and more young adults have never had a serious relationship of any kind, nor even a sexual partner… and all of this is fueling a … ‘return to the Handmaid’s tale’ wave of politics and policies that massively infringe upon the rights of women.
Your strategy is not working.
It is not producing an inclusive, more understanding, more empathetic, more tolerant or more patient culture.
It is producing the opposite.
…
‘Blame all men’ is your message, your strategy, distilled into a slogan. Be wary of all of them, all the time, you never know which one could hurt you.
A more sound strategy would not alienate allies, it would be more specific, targeted, with actually useful heuristics or rules that can be practically applied so as to actually be able to discern the difference between likely ally and likely foe.
What needs to be happening is the development of a constructive dialogue… not a hardening and intensifying of recalcitrance.
… Unless your goal actually is to escalate tensions.
Sorry, got that whole Anarchist thing going on, a system’s purpose is what it ultimately does, not what it claims to do.
Legitimately empathized and said I was sorry to hear about your experience, and you seemed to interpret it as me attempting to provide validation, so not sure how you think that corresponds with an unwillingness to empathize. I’m not talking to you any differently than I would talk to anyone else. If you don’t like the way I talk in general you don’t have to engage.
I’m not playing dumb. You just didn’t make a point and I was trying to ask if you meant to make one as kindly as I could. It seems like you’re attempting to now, so I’ll address that.
I never said men shouldn’t feel bad. Please point out when you believe I said that.
men should be allies. If you just said that men are becoming incels then I’m not sure why you think they are employing the allyship strategy. They’re clearly not. I also never suggested that allyship will solve the worlds problems or that women SHOULD treat men X way. I said that if men want to know how to make it less likely women are concerned for their safety when they show up, they should engage in allyship. That’s true, but not enough men are engaging in allyship. If more men did it there’d be a larger societal shift. More women interacting with more men who are allies and seeing them through that lens.
My message has never been about blaming anyone. I’ve never addressed how women should feel. Some women feel and act a specific way. That’s the framework the discussion is taking place in. If men want suggestions as to how to make women feel safer, I have some. They do not have to listen to them. They can ignore me and the other women telling them what would help women feel safe. Not sure if you know how allyship works, but a big part of it is constructive dialogue, and right now there are women saying what would help and you seem to be more interested in arguing with them than anything else. Likely allies are not alienated by this behavior and have empathy and understanding for the position women find themselves in. They… actually extend allyship.
If me suggesting allyship towards women is eliciting this kind of response I have a legitimate concern about your actual interest in being an ally. Seems like a weird thing to be against. Writing up a whole comment to argue against… being nice to people?
I think it’s great that you’ve helped people in need. I’m sorry you were abused. That’s awful no matter the circumstances.
I’m not sure why you’re bringing up men crying and being vulnerable. I support anyone expressing their emotions in healthy ways and I’ve not seen people here say otherwise. Are you just sharing your personal experience or was this related to something?
I would hope most people can say yes to the last bit. It’s more or less the basis of civil society.
I am not looking for validation from you, as it is obvious from the start you aren’t interested in empathizing with a man, please stop talking to me like you just finished your BA in Psych or Social Work and are talking to a troubled teen.
You are intentionally playing dumb and trying to psychoanalyze me, to avoid addressing the actual totality of what I have said.
This is disrespectful.
It is a fairly basic and well understood fact that men tend to value respect and perceptions of being respected significantly more than women, on average.
…
I said what I said as a direct response to your response, to being asked:
‘What are men supposed to do with this besides feel bad?’
Your response was essentially:
Men shouldn’t feel bad about this.
and
Be an ally to women.
…
Ok, so…
For the first part, you are just outright denying men the capacity or right to … feel a certain way, express emotions about an experience they had.
This is fundamentally at odds with the conception of tearing down the enforced gender normativity of patriarchy, a huge element of which is men stuffing down their emotions, being told when and how and what they’re allowed to have emotions about, which is generally: suck it up buttercup, your feelings don’t matter, your emotions are not valid.
You are directly mandating all men abide by this rule.
You are directly enforcing the patriarchy, toxic masculinity.
…
For the second part,
I’ve been an ally to women (and many others) for 20 years.
Call that my sense of honor.
So have many other men.
I gave you an anecdote, a case study of one, my lived experience of how that worked out for me.
It didn’t work for me personally, and it isn’t working at a broader societal scale either.
The ‘gender wars’ are intsensifying, male incel edgelord culture got a fascist kleptocracy elected to run the US government, more and more marriages are failing and more and more young adults have never had a serious relationship of any kind, nor even a sexual partner… and all of this is fueling a … ‘return to the Handmaid’s tale’ wave of politics and policies that massively infringe upon the rights of women.
Your strategy is not working.
It is not producing an inclusive, more understanding, more empathetic, more tolerant or more patient culture.
It is producing the opposite.
…
‘Blame all men’ is your message, your strategy, distilled into a slogan. Be wary of all of them, all the time, you never know which one could hurt you.
A more sound strategy would not alienate allies, it would be more specific, targeted, with actually useful heuristics or rules that can be practically applied so as to actually be able to discern the difference between likely ally and likely foe.
What needs to be happening is the development of a constructive dialogue… not a hardening and intensifying of recalcitrance.
… Unless your goal actually is to escalate tensions.
Sorry, got that whole Anarchist thing going on, a system’s purpose is what it ultimately does, not what it claims to do.
Legitimately empathized and said I was sorry to hear about your experience, and you seemed to interpret it as me attempting to provide validation, so not sure how you think that corresponds with an unwillingness to empathize. I’m not talking to you any differently than I would talk to anyone else. If you don’t like the way I talk in general you don’t have to engage.
I’m not playing dumb. You just didn’t make a point and I was trying to ask if you meant to make one as kindly as I could. It seems like you’re attempting to now, so I’ll address that.
I never said men shouldn’t feel bad. Please point out when you believe I said that.
men should be allies. If you just said that men are becoming incels then I’m not sure why you think they are employing the allyship strategy. They’re clearly not. I also never suggested that allyship will solve the worlds problems or that women SHOULD treat men X way. I said that if men want to know how to make it less likely women are concerned for their safety when they show up, they should engage in allyship. That’s true, but not enough men are engaging in allyship. If more men did it there’d be a larger societal shift. More women interacting with more men who are allies and seeing them through that lens.
My message has never been about blaming anyone. I’ve never addressed how women should feel. Some women feel and act a specific way. That’s the framework the discussion is taking place in. If men want suggestions as to how to make women feel safer, I have some. They do not have to listen to them. They can ignore me and the other women telling them what would help women feel safe. Not sure if you know how allyship works, but a big part of it is constructive dialogue, and right now there are women saying what would help and you seem to be more interested in arguing with them than anything else. Likely allies are not alienated by this behavior and have empathy and understanding for the position women find themselves in. They… actually extend allyship.
If me suggesting allyship towards women is eliciting this kind of response I have a legitimate concern about your actual interest in being an ally. Seems like a weird thing to be against. Writing up a whole comment to argue against… being nice to people?