Is the USA enabling genocide currently? How?
Oh hey it’s once again the “freedom advocate” who is always spouting off support for the most fascist oppressive shit going on in the world. I should learn how to block in this new app
Oh look, another lefty who I have no idea who they are whose head I live rent free in :)
And surprise surprise, they have nothing useful to say and can’t answer a simple question.
I take it you do not believe Israel is commiting genocide? Or are you genuinely asking in which way the USA is enabling this?
Both.
How the US is enabling it: Sending money, weapons, intellegence etc to the Israeli military. The US is actively enabling the operations of the IDF, this is obvious and I do not think that anyone claims anything different. The US denies that a genocide is being commited, but they do not deny that they greatly help the IDF.
Why the operations of the IDF is considered genocide: See: https://www.un.org/unispal/document/un-special-committee-press-release-19nov24/ or https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_genocide
Side note regarding sources and integrity of information: Do you believe that Israel is mounting a large intentional disinformation/propaganda campaign towards western countries? Or do you not believe any such thing? And do you live in the US?
The position that what Israel are doing is a genocide is the sticking point, and one that is highly contested. I don’t believe that what they’re doing is, because they’re not trying to erase an entire national or ethnic group - just Hamas.
I’m not alone in thinking this, but I’m expecting I’ll be banned for saying it with how Lemmy is.
Hamas literally outright call for the genocide of Jews and Israelis btw. Hamas NEED to be eliminated, and the only ones who disagree are people who agree with their calls for genocide.
I see that this is the common point of view for people who sympathise with Israel. I strongly disagree with you but appreciate you wanting to discuss it.
It seems you belive you have to be convinced of to things in order to change your view: A. Genocidal acts are being commited. B. The genocidal acts are being commited with genocidal intent.
A: That genocidal acts are being committed is a fact. Carefully read through the wikipedia article above (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_genocide) if you’re not convinced. Do it. Read the article.
B: You seem to focus on this. i.e that the actions taken by IDF are only powered by a will to protect the security of Israel, and that there is no intent of genocide. I don’t necessarily agree, but let’s say you’re right: Israel only does what it does out of security concerns. This does not warrant the genocidal actions commited. You can’t, out of security concerns, kill 10,000 children. This should be obvious.
Please reconsider your views.
“Genocidal acts” doesn’t mean that a genocide is happening. “Destruction of civilian infrastructure” is an “act of genocide”. That happens in almost every conflict in the world, and not every one is a genocide.
A genocide is a specific thing. For me to be convinced that there is a genocide happening, specific things need to happen and with a specific intent - and those things aren’t happening in Gaza. Hamas want a genocide. They’re very open about this. Israel are trying to eliminate Hamas. If Hamas surrendered, the killing would stop.
Unfortunately in war there are casualties. Casualties will be increased when one of the parties at war - Hamas - use civilians, including kids, as “meat shields”, like putting their military bases in schools and hospitals as Hamas has been factually proven to do. Hamas have been caught faking civilian deaths and casualty numbers too, and they’re an internationally recognised terrorist organisation - they are not to be trusted, no matter what you think of Israel. Again - Hamas openly call for the genocide of Jews and Israelis. Very openly.
A question for you - if you were to agree that Israel are doing what they are doing in retaliation to what Hamas did on October 7, and will not stop until Hamas are defeated, would you still consider that a genocide? If Hamas surrendered and Israel stopped killing Palestinians, would you still say it was a genocide?
Another question - are you open to reconsidering your views? Or are you steadfast in them but expect me to consider changing mine?
Also, if a large amount of “genocidal acts” doesn’t amount to genocide, then what does? Is Israel allowed to commit the most horrendous crimes as long as it is in “good faith”?
I am probably just as steadfast as you, but I try to understand the views of the opposite side. You seem to do that too, given that you’re discussing with me. That is appreciated.
To answer your question: Yes it is still obviously genocide even if it is in retaliation. There are many legitimate ways of retaliating against a militant group - starving an entire population is not one of them. Israel could be conducting this war in a very different way.
Then why don’t they conduct the war in a very different way? Because they want to get rid of Gaza’s population, I say. See this, for example (although just reports for now): https://www.timesofisrael.com/us-reportedly-developing-plan-to-resettle-1-million-gazans-in-libya/ which also points towards the US complicity in the genocide. 1 million Gazans aren’t Hamas fighters. 1 million Gazans are just arabs/muslims, and that’s apparantly enough reason to force them from their homeland?
I don’t know, but I know of one thing citizens SHOULDN’T do to prevent their country enabling genocide. That is forfeiting their future by electing a dictator that might genocide poor people on the other side of the world a little less in exchange for giving up freedoms. I get it. Voluntarily making our lives worse/harder because it might help poor people in another country sounds like a grand and noble thing to do. But now they’re sending American citizens to concentration camps. If you think this was a fair trade, just block me right now. Don’t be like gen Z and swing voters in the 2024 US election. Sometimes you just have to choose to save yourself first.
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General strikes
Tax strikes
____ing politicians who support the genocide
Not much that will have direct actionable results tbh but it doesn’t mean you should not a proper position within your abilities.
Boycott, awareness spreading, voting but that’s even more limited
Just generally going into opposition v the two party regime that ensures that there is no viable way to stop the us from supporting Israel
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Vote locally
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Run locally
If you can rally people behind a cause, go for it.
Other than that. Nothing really. Try to spend money with those that align with your values.
Unrelated, but likely more important. Donate to charity, or help the homeless in your own community.
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Speak up, tell people what you think and why.
If that doesn’t work: something was added to your constitution for this situation, the second amendment. You can use your six shooter to go up to the government’s tank and gunships. Good luck.
We don’t put it in the tourism brochures, but it turns out guns are really expensive. Which sucks because the fash seem to have all the money at the moment.
bullets add up pretty quick too, depending on your budget. Novice shooters tend to shoot for the head (human target) and hit the target 60% of the time at 3 feet for a stationary target, 24% at nine feet. Its less for moving targets.
Missing a target thats literally 3 feet from you sounds crazy but once you try it you will see how frustrating it can be to hold a pistol right and line it up right to the target. I’ve walked up to stationary grouse on roadways (they come in the morning to eat rocks to aid digestion) and blasted all around them missing each time from 5 feet away. Luckily they are incredibly stupid and just stand there, or look at the spot where the bullet hit on the ground, confused.
–Kreskin, the mighty hunter.
Talk with people! Discuss it with your friends! Be aware that they might have a very different outlook on this, so be patient with people. Here is a list of things to do when discussing this with people supporting Israel:
- Don’t berate them. These are your friends, not murderers. Direct your anger towards the actual murderers.
- Ask them if they believe Israel is mounting a heavy disinformation/propaganda campaign towards the west. If they do not believe this, it is relatively easy to prove, see example below.
- Show them the Twitter accs of Itamar Ben Gvir and Bezalel Smotrich. These guys are quite outspoken in their intentions.
- Show them examples of heroic acts of Palestinas, rather than just Palestinians suffering. This will help them respect Arabs, as that seems to be difficult for many Americans due to two and a half decades of Indoctrination that all arabs all terrorists.
- Also the obvious things (tens of thousands of children killed, not letting food enter, cutting off water, etc)
Example of Israeli disinformation: They created a fake hamas website (hamas dotttt com) whereas the real website was taken down from all of internet (hamas dottt ps). The fake one was heavily promoted by Israel’s official twitter acc and several Israeli government officials on twitter and recieved heavy traffic during Oct 2023-end of 2024. Use the wayback machine or similar for this, I believe both sites are down now.
There has also been many, many other lies by the Israeli government. Find proved examples and show.
Is the USA enabling genocide?
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The USA was built on genocide goddammit
Whole nations of people wiped out
And yes, obviously, Gaza.
Most nations are built on genocide, it’s an unfortunate part of human nature to be cruel to those not like your group.I mean the last hundred years alone, the of Cossacks if Crimea, the holocaust, Kaiser run Germany committed one before WW2, Ottomans genocide Armenia, China is actively engaged in one now, as well as Israels current actions in Gaza, and that’s just off the top of my head, but somehow only the USA is built on it. You ignore the skeletons in your own foundations and dishonor yourself and their deaths by doing so
I’m honestly not sure what point you’re trying to make.
The USA was built the same way all nations were, by subjugation and eradication but we are one of the few looked down on for it and outright called irredeemable for it
Oh! Lookie here, a fascist for breakfast. My day is off to a lovely start.
The difference is in the history. America has NEVER been honest about its origins. No other modern nation was built on slavery like we were. Britain abolished it decades before America. And after WWII, they gave up the rest of their colonies because it was the right thing to do. That’s when the American Empire took off. Naval bases in every country. Global watchdog, above the laws everyone else has to follow.
America? It only stopped genociding Indians when they were such a small population that they couldn’t pose a threat to the white man, and it still fucks them over every chance it can. Edit: oh yeah, and then it painted them as villains in cowboy movies for half a century. Nice.
Racism is so deeply embedded in America that the simple claim that black lives matter turned into a controversy. You know what a normal nation would’ve done? Examine their police. Us? We said fuck those people, let the racist cops do whatever they want. Do you have any clue what it’s like to raise a black son in America? I’m white myself so I can’t speak firsthand, but I have talked to numerous people who’ve told me about “the Talk”. You know about this? It’s not the birds and the bees, it’s about how to behave around cops so they don’t kill you. How insanely fucked up does your country have to be for that??
This is called honesty. Progress can’t be made without it.
I’ve made it my life’s work to fight white supremacy in the blue collar South and I’ll fucking devour you whole.
Edit: I’d like to print out to anyone stumbling across this that that sumbitch knows I’m right and is lying bloodied in the mud at my feet, crying, like a little bitch. Just like the ones I’ve beaten in real life after they insisted on dancing. Bullies have come after me my whole fuckin life and I’ve learned EXACTLY how they work. I know the strategies fascists use on forums like these. And I’ll bet you’ve logged me, maybe you’ve got someone looking into me. I don’t doubt the fascist Musk’s AI has flagged me for all kinds of shit and it’s just a matter of time now.
I ain’t fuckin scared of you, and your mother should be ashamed.
You dishonor everyone who died fighting the fascists by misusing that word. You are screaming over the lived experience of an indigenous man and throwing slurs. Hell you accused me of working for Musk because I disagree with you partially. Do some introspection. But go on, tell me more about how you beat me, thump your chest and never stop to think
If anything, enabling is too soft a word
Look guys, we have weapons to sell. It’s what we do.
You make it sound like Israel actually pays for it’s weapons!
You’re saying they don’t pay for their weapons? Pretty sure we would stop selling them weapons if they weren’t ever paying for them.
I am indeed saying that. Remember that the US government doesn’t have state run arms industries: the money is going to private companies regardless of whether Israel buys them, or the US government buys them and gifts them to Israel. It’s not about money.
True we don’t have state run arms industries but never think the military industrial complex isn’t part of the government. In America it’s always about the money.
Yeah, but the military industrial complex still gets its cut when the US gifts Israel weapons, it just comes from the US tax payers.
Next election vote EVERYONE OUT. No Republicans (MAGA) should be left in Congress to make sure they give a hell to Trump and force him to quit (almost near impossible) but that’s the only way
the SPD and KPD should’ve just voted the Nazis out of power, right guys?
It’s worse than that. The guy is suggesting to replace the Nazis with Nazis-lite lol
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No, 60 thousand people were positively confirmed to have been directly killed by Israeli munitions. The number of people who died in total was estimated at a quarter million.
How would that help? The Democrats were also doing genocide
Someone is feeling positive and adventurous, talking about voting and stuff… Do you really think that you’ll be able to vote in a fair election next time?
The work that I’ve seen done to sabotage voting before and after last US elections ntrlls me that cheeto&co are hell bent on making sure no one in the US will be able to vote honestly ever again.
The time to do something was 6 months ago, now its too little, too late
Go to gaza
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Become Luigi.
Unless you’re a billionaire or willing to go full Player 2, there’s nothing you can do on a macro scale.
You can, in your little slice of the world, do good things. When ICE asks you if you’ve seen someone, you tell them you haven’t. If you’re walking past a business getting raided and see a brown person, you tell them to turn around and get away. If you run a school and ICE shows up, you stand up for the kids they’re trying to kidnap. If you see ICE kidnapping someone, at minimum, film and post it. If there’s a group of people willing to physically intervene, join them.
That’s it.
Voting doesn’t solve this because all Democrats have to offer is strongly-worded letters, and Donald uses those letters to wipe Elon Musk’s ass. Their choice was aiding and abetting fascism or getting richer, and they chose the money.
Furthermore:
Be aware of local political groups in your areas that share values that align with yours. Generally, have a practice of being involved. Work out how your state and local elections and party machines operate, run for empty positions or support good candidates who will do the job, and not sell out to the local moneybags.
Attend protests. Sure, it might look like a bunch of people standing outside getting rained on with soggy cardboard signs, but protest works. It shows others that even though you may be afraid, you’re still standing up for what you believe is right. Support protests you agree with - order them some pizzas or something.
There’s no longer a choice about what to do - become an activist, or become complicit.
Attend protests.
Meh, not sure I agree on this one, unless you’re part of the Marsha P. Johnson school of brick throwing and you’re going armed. Protests accomplish nothing (apart from making it easier for ICE to identify people) without a credible threat of violence.
I disagree with you. Protests accomplish a great deal, and send an undeniable message when that message is appropriately scoped and targeted.
Protests show popular support for an issue in ways that are impossible to minimize or ignore, and they are effective in moving the needle on issues. Have a few tens of thousands of people take to the streets sends an undeniable message. Even getting a hundred people to chant something in a town square sends an undeniable message. Just because the outcome isn’t immediately visible doesn’t mean that nothing was accomplished.
NEVER go to a protest armed, that defeats the purpose. Why make a situation worse by making everyone surrounding the protest regardless of whether they’re uniform, or just someone getting to and from lunch fearful for their lives? That’s very bad advice. Additionally, gearing up almost automatically makes for a bad look. Half of what a protest aims to accomplish is to show the other side of an issue “We are here, we aren’t something you should be afraid of, we are people like you” - how is that aim going to be achieved by masking up like a bunch of cosplaying militarized goons? You don’t want that. I don’t want that. Believe it or not, I doubt half of the people co-opted into ICE want that. And part of the message has to be “We don’t need this in our lives”
Just take a look at the campus protests regarding the Palestinian Genocide. First off the students were made out to be violent, which as it turns out is largely untrue, then a bunch of pro-israel actual crazies showed up and started assaulting them (and random people) on the street. Not a good look, even with media minimization. By simply being there, and refusing to give up, they have raised awareness on the issue despite the personal cost. Those people have taken a great personal risk to do something about a situation they find ethically intolerable. I think that deserves respect, at the very least.
Be loud, focused and get your point across, but be respectful. I’ve seen police step in to stop potentially/violent counterprotestors on many occasions, believe it or not they do actually try to be neutral even in the face of provocation - so don’t offer that kind of fear to anyone sharing the local environment whilst making your point. There’s so little respectful middle ground remaining that it is critical to preserve it, because this is now a wasting asset.
This situation is now tilting towards the question of how much the lack of protest and visible popular opposition emboldens a group of self-serving individuals, before the cumulative risk becomes worse than the risk of protesting and possibly getting hurt. Constant, nonviolent protest in even the face of state violence is how to win this, and sure, that puts the protestors at risk. Risk is part of this equation, it’s coming for us - for many it’s already here - and can no longer be ignored.
I get that it’s hard work. Sometimes it feels like nothing is accomplished, and it’s not shocking and awe inspiring…but Hard Work is what’s required to correct this trajectory. We spend so much time and effort making entertainment about one special person or one special moment that we’ve given ourselves a social impediment vs. truly understanding the kinds of efforts, risks and suffering it took to get to a more equitable society in the first place.
You and I will just have to agree to disagree on this. Have a good day.
👏👏👏
Vote with your wallet. Money is the only thing that matters to the people in charge here
Voting with your wallet is a lie, like recycling plastic
You can’t do collective action individually. You can make the house hurt a little bit, but you’ll never force them to change through what you buy. The house always wins, unless you get together to change the rules
I disagree with this. You can already see a recent example of Canadian consumers avoiding US imports, creating pressure on US companies, and the US government reacting by making moves to curtail the original tarrifs proposal.
Obviously the Canadian boycott was only one component but I believe it did have a meaningful impact.
Kind of agree with you re:plastics. Last time I read about it they could only be recycled once into inferior quality plastic. Ironically in this case I’d suggest voting with your wallet is a solution to the plastic problem since businesses will react to more consumers switching to responsibly packaged products like paper bags for fruit + veg from a local grocers. One of the large supermarket chains in the UK, Waitrose, switched to paper bags due to public pressure in the past few years.
The Canadian boycotts are not “voting with your wallet”, they’re collective action.
Canadians, together, decided to boycott American goods. Their leaders cancelled deals. Their local stores and suppliers decided they’d rather source from anywhere else. The Canadian government started working on trade deals with everyone else
The nation of Canada as a whole is boycotting American goods. They’re not doing this individually, they have an organized response
Encouraging people to vote with their wallet creates collective action. How do you think these things start? You telling people not to bother is exactly how you prevent it.
No, that’s backwards. You don’t reduce plastic by recycling, you don’t change corporate behavior by not buying their stuff
If a company loses a customer, that’s nothing. If a company has less sales, that’s a marketing problem. They aren’t going to operate more morally now, because it’s a business problem and a PR problem
Boycotts are very different. You get a block of people together, you tell them “we’re all boycotting you because X”, and then they see it in their numbers. You do it loudly. The investors get nervous, you’ve very publicly connected the cause and effect, other businesses might join in to take advantage, etc
You have to organize first, it’s great to shop ethically if you can, but you’re just acting as the market as a whole… Are they going to start farming more sustainably, or are they going to try to convince consumers they are? One of these things is much easier and cheaper
If you’re organized, you can come back with “hey everyone, they’re bullshitting us, keep up the boycott”
The dangerous part of this is that without organization, people feel like they’re fixing the problem when they’re not. It gives an illusion of control that isn’t there
Voting with your wallet can be a boycott. Seems like you’re really mincing words here and creating a false equivalent to recycling plastic that no one else is using as a comparison.
It’s not a false equivalence, it’s the same exact thing
Its a lie. The lie is “you can do collective action individually”. You can’t… That’s not how any of this works
Boycotts are real. Voting with your wallet is just shopping.
There’s no message to it, no power - just a slice of consumers to market to differently or a need to pivot
Can you give some examples?
Buy local, in cash.
Every card transaction benefits the big credit card companies, all of which are complicit. Local businesses are some of the ones hit hardest from all of this and will need your support.
Avoid chains owned by local folks, too. Those big chains still benefit even if it’s your neighbor that owns the local McDonalds.
Support things the government is trying to destroy, like your local library, and your local stores that sell LGBT positive merchandise.
Make friends with your neighbors. Grow things in your yard that they need and trade for stuff you need. Many folks that seem in agreement with all of this really aren’t if you know them. We are stronger together.
In regards to home gardens, Not everyone needs everything, but everyone needs something. If you can get chickens or some kind of egg laying fowl, then that’s a possibility as well. Guineas are fighters and do well in areas without a lot of brush or low trees.
Bike as much as you can. Avoid gas as much as you can. Ride the bus or a train. Don’t fly anywhere. Install solar panels if you are able. Capture rain water and use it for your garden.
Buy used as much as possible, especially clothes.
Replace your single use materials in your home with reusable ones. Rags instead of paper towels, glass containers instead of plastic ones, metal straws, and a water pick instead of floss.
Make things. Anything. Don’t monetize your hobbies, share them instead. Trade homemade goods and art for other stuff.
Avoid the dollar as much as possible, and use cash when you can’t.
Where possible, avoid buying from companies that are complicit. It’s not always possible but it’s worth trying.
I’ve used apps like this to help make decisions:
Where possible, avoid buying from companies that are complicit.
Unless you buy from local creators/farmers, EVERYONE is complicit.
Simply existing is destroying the planet, so, like many things, you practice harm reduction. If I need to buy hardware or tools, and there’s no local shop, I go to Lowe’s. Not because Lowe’s is awesome, it’s a shitty corporation. But because Home Depot donates money to groups that practice gay conversion therapy, which is worse than anything I know of that Lowe’s does.
Pretty much every decision you make can be about harm reduction on some level. Don’t let perfect be the enemy of better.
My problem is that I never even HEARD of the Home Depot thing.
Here’s one you may or may not know about. Nestle actually engages in and uses literal slave labor to grow coco beans in other countries.
So you think “well, how hard is it really to just buy hersheys chocolate instead? And buy your cookies from local bakeries?”
Except no. Nestle is more than just chocolate. It’s like hundreds of brands. I’m constantly checking packaging now to see if their logo is on products. It owns DiGorno pizza. It owns Hot Pockets. It owns water bottles. It’s like half the grocery store. And that’s just ONE COMPANY!!!
My issue isn’t accepting that you’re right. My issue is keeping track of it all. I’ve hated Nestle since 2012. I didn’t realize the scope of their brands until 2020. I think they even own a pet food company that makes dog food and cat food. Now granted I don’t have pets, so I’d not have delt with that, but still.
I only have so many brain cells left to rot before I’m a full on dementia ridden crazy person who thinks it’s still the Nixon years, despite the fact I was born in 1983.
The No Thanks app let’s you scan barcodes to quickly check if a product is on the BDS list. You can also search. Either way it only takes a few seconds to check if unsure about a brand
It was about the same years for me that I realized the scale of evil at Nestle, followed by learning they make everything. In fact we were even born the same year.
I hear you. All we can do is our best.
Not every one but all mega corps for sure and we are mostly fucked by them…
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This but big. Large scale disruption to the economy would do a lot toward fixing problems.
Exactly. Here’s a thought… and I’m just spitballing here: tariffs. Then take them away. Then add them again. Then take them away. Then add them again. /s
That’s some cool stable genius shit!
Someone get this chap to run for office!
Look, we don’t just elect anyone, here. How many pussies have they grabbed? How many bankruptcies? These kinds of things are the bedrock of our election standards, established in 2015, and cannot, in good conscience, be unanswered.
Better pump up those numbers, hope they have “Justice system doesn’t apply to me” money.
The harmful corruption must be torn down before peaceful negotiation may take place.
So just sit back and let Trump do his thing?
Thanks for attempting an answer. I’ve got to say this feels laughable in light of what’s going on.
“vote with your wallet” while our wallets are empty
Sing a bar of Alice’s restaurant…
