I think progressives never thought about this because we banked on immigration and demographic change allowing us to win culturally and electorally but the issue is immigrants tend to be overwhelmingly male, that is how Trump won actually he won over a lot of Hispanic,Black,Asian and indigenous men who feel humiliated by a new culture, economy and world.
So what can we do rhetorically and policy wise to win more young men over ?
Help them to break down. Encourage them to be soft and show them that that softness is strength. So many of these young men are like this because they feel alone. We need to bring them together in positive ways.
Sell a more radical version
What you’ve described is every complaint I’ve had with centrists and neocons in the democratic party. I don’t really know where the progressive part comes in.
Bernie did amazing with men to the point where “bernie bros” were being mocked in media, so has Mamdani in NY in polls.
If anything, I would argue that the Democratic party should be more populist and progressive. Focusing on things that pull up everybody, because everyone is struggling right now.
“Progressives” lost because they’re throwing all their weight behind a few big issues that are very disagreed with by the majority of the population - gender ideology, immigration, socialism/communism, at the top of that pile - and getting aggressive, instantly going to name calling and threatening violence, calling for censorship and “de-platforming”, and trying to get people fired and ruin the lives of at anyone who doesn’t blindly follow along.
The blue collar workers? Dems don’t give a fuck about them. White people? Bend the knee to everyone and apologise constantly or get fucked. Men? Fuck everything about you unless you identify as a different gender or are in the country illegally.
It’s really not surprising to anyone outside of the democrat bubble that calling half the country Nazis, bigots, and a half a dozen “phobes” is a bad idea. Also do you realise you’re just admitting to trying to “buy” election wins by essentially importing and bribing immigrants to vote Democrat? That’s another reason the democrats got annihilated.
Also, after they lost they said anyone who didn’t vote for Kamala was a racist, sexist, nazi almost guaranteeing they will lose mid terms. I’ve moved from Dem to independent because it is clear Dems hate my existence more than they care about winning
It’s kinda hard to look at what’s currently happening in the US and not feel like every person who failed to vote against trump is a bit of an asshole. What a nightmare we all have to live through now.
In your mind, what is happening that would cause someone who voted for Trump to be an ass hole, if the other candidate was calling them sexist and racist and an incel loser without even knowing them?
Project 2025, deportations with no due process, ignoring court orders, destroying all sense of confidentiality to foreign adversaries in the govt, cutting every govt program that politically disagrees with them, starting a useless war with Iran, appointing the worst possible people to his cabinet, pardoning J6 terrorists and calling for the jailing of the J6 committee, trying to fire every judge who disagrees with him, dismantling and wasting our foreign aid resources, not to mention countless counts of lying, cheating, raping, scamming, corruption, hate, etc. Literally name a thing and he’s done it. And this is just off the top of my head.
Project 2025 has nothing at all to do with trump or this admin lol. “No due process” only if you ignore all the due process they’ve already had.
Did you just say that the USA started a war with Iran? Lol come on now.
“Progressives” like you spreading “misinformation” and outright lies like you just did are one of the reasons why you lost almost the entire country.
Did you just say that the USA started a war with Iran? Lol come on now.
Who just launched missiles into whose country? Check the news.
So the USA just out of nowhere launched missiles into Iran and started a war?
The USA aren’t at war with Iran lol.
You aren’t paying attention.
Ah yes because I’m sure whichever idiots run that site are completely unbiased and not at all stretching the truth to fit their agenda.
Never convicted of rape, said he doesn’t agree and won’t implement project 2025, he didn’t start a war with Iran, the people he is deporting are here illegally and violent criminals who have had due process, the Russia hoax was just that ie a hoax, both democrats and republicans constantly cut programs they disagree with once in power, that’s not a Trump thing, he pardoned J6 rioters that have not had due process after 4 years (you know the thing you complained about illegal immigrant violent criminals not getting), you’re a moron if you didn’t think USAID was a CIA slush fund, since you are so concerned about foreign wars, and you are an even bigger moron if you think Trump is the only politician that lies, they all do it frequently.
Stop reading and giving into propaganda…
I’m not even going to properly respond to this, if I could convince you you’d already have seen the truth. Stop watching fox news. Blocked
The people making the USA a nightmare at the moment are the people that didn’t vote for trump. They’re the ones rioting, attacking people, looting nike stores, burning cars, etc - all because immigration laws are finally being enforced.
Bad troll, take a hike
Straight to name calling and trying to censor people. Hmm, didn’t I just say something about the “progressives” jumping straight to that and it costing them dearly?
Seems you still haven’t learned.
humiliated by a new culture, economy and world.
So what can we do rhetorically and policy wise to win more young men over ?
Hmmm
do you have an actual answer to the question ?
Also even if you disagree with that, that is how they feel and when it comes to votes weather or not how they feel is justified or not doesn’t matter
Stop humiliating young “men”
This entire exercise is inherently the reason why it doesn’t work BTW.
It has that feel of: how do you do fellow alpha males vibe.
It will take a generation to unwind it. And frankly judging comments here it won’t succeed. “Liberal” base for the most part doesn’t seem them as anything beyond a useful idiot they need voting their way, so they get their agenda filled.
If you are trying to make a deal, offer something “young men” can get in return. Can’t even muster up anything to offer lol
These politics are divisive and that’s on purpose. The current framework is unworkable. You are not fixing identity politics with more stupid identity politics.
This is a class war IMHO and nobody is acting like it.
Sell it to women first and let them broadcast that they wont date any regressives.
Im assuming the regressives are mostly young cishet men
You don’t like cishet men much, do you?
Without having stats to back it up, it seems perfectly logical to me. Cishet men are the people conservative views benefit the most, and they’re the people folks like Andrew Tate specifically target. If I had to make a blind guess, I’d have said it’s cishet men, too.
No I agree with who is problematic. My comment was in reference to the solution being both forced on to women and under the assumption that courtship (sex) is the only way to reach those men.
I’m not an apologist, but when people are, from birth mind you, molded and made to be a certain way how are they supposed to behave? When they do reach an age where they have some beginnings of autonomy and critical thinking skills what happens? Phase 2 begins in the form of rightwing bullshittery. Couple all that with no sense of identity or value and you’ve got a recipe for destruction. Very few men can break free from all that. They’re, we’re, victims and villains.
it is not the only way, but sex sells and that’s also what the nazis do: on one hand they have indoctrinated women cosplay the lucky trad wife and on the other hand they imply men can just keep women like pets if they’re rich or alternatively at some point get a girl pregnant, guilt trip her into not aborting, then basically ruin her carreer and force them into a marriage they can’t ever get out of. that’s what fascists present to boys on youtube, tiktok and other media to win them over. they also have other talking points, but this is one propaganda vector.
I said regressives, most of which I’d wager are cishet men.
That doesn’t count cishet men outside of the regressive group. I hope, otherwise I’d be in trouble with myself
the issue with that is with less women dating period since less women want to settle. Would that work ?
There just isn’t a gaurentee or even a good enough chance that being a progressive or supporting progressive politics will get you a girlfriend or wife so would this kind of incentive system work ?
If you want the carrot and stick to work you have to give the carrot.
Telling women to just date random progressive guys for the cause even ignoring the fact it’s not ery ethical. I just don’t think you could convince enough women to do it for it to work
hah that’s true, good point
they don’t even have to date them. dating them and publicly showing the dates off (like in tiktok videos etc) helps and counters misogynists like the Tates or ppl claiming girls only date rich guys etc, but just hanging with boys and making clear they are leftist and like being around leftist boys will sway lots of boys. talking politics also helps.
i remember in my teens there were multiple girls doing this and it helped a lot. there was this punk girl and she would hang with like four boys and play them punk music, make them tea and hand out mixtapes and flyers for protests. another was a girl scout and met boy scouts on scout camps and they were following her around like creeps, but she invited groups of them to activities after the camp and got them to go to peace protests and help at community events. if a cute girl asks a boy to help her hand out flyers for a good cause at the town fair most can’t resist. and many girls have no idea how cute they are. they see stupid ads with supermodels and compare themselves with them, but there’s a very wide range of what boys like and they’re very likely in it, for most boys, even if they think they’re ugly.
Women don’t want effeminate men.
first of all, progressive men don’t imply them being effeminate.
secondly, you should be aware that “women” refers to a group of about 4 billion people. that means, if what you say is false for only 1% you’re wronging 40 million people. (but what you wrote is probably false for a much higher percentage. just like men, women can like different and multiple types at the same time and their preference can even change over time)
First of all, I disagree. Be mad about it if you want. Have a good cry. Then embrace it. Effemininity doesn’t have to be a bad thing. If that’s you, then be you. Of any time in history, now is the chance for you to celebrate whoever you are. Make a flag or something.
Secondly, do you know the difference between a million and a billion? It’s about a billion. My statement was clearly a generalization that would leave room for outliers. Also your estimate assumes that female babies would be included in the “woman” category. Hopefully that’s just a whoopsie daisy and we haven’t moved to a place where kids can identify as women.
speak for yourself lol
🤮
My idea, as dumb and probably ineffective as it is, would be one of the tools I hate ( AI ) to start a mass disinformation campaign that claims all the people like Joe Rogan or any of these other bad apples are weaklings that sexually prey on little kids. That, alongside any other way to make them look weak
If they play dirty, I see no reason not to do the same.
If they play dirty, I see no reason not to do the same.
YAS ONLY “THEY” PLAY DIRTY
my team good!
Wait. Are WE the baddies?
Male stereotypes have to be culturally broken first. Men are being taught that showing any emotions other than anger and hate is effeminate. They’re being taught that empathy is weakness, that education is stupidity, that freedom is slavery.
Everything that makes men human is being stripped away, leaving a husk of burning hate awaiting marching orders. They need to reconnect to humanity.
40 something male that has struggled to overcome toxic masculinity. I mean I was literally slapped silly by my parents and grandparents for crying when I was 5 and told “boys dont cry”. I mean I’ve cried 3 times in my life before coming to terms with needing to change. Eventalking to my wife it’s taken years for her to accept that Im allowed to feel more emotions than anger and laughter.
Im a foster parent now and it’s been a lot of work to internalize my stuff but damn im supportive if the boys we have want to feel their feelings. 3 year old wanted a rainbow shirt and I got it for him but his dickehad machismo father called him a faggot. Oh boy I made sure he wore his favorite shirt for every visit.
I am going to be honest, I think women need to be a a part of this. We are used to being right in regards to gender conflict because usually we are but one thing I agree with men on is that every woman says they want men to share their feelings more but many women lose respect for a man they see as weak.
Bell Hooks talks a lot about this so you can go read her.
I do not find that to be the case at all in my circles, it’s usually the guys giving shit to other guys for expressing emotion and the emotionally expressive people (including women) riffing them for back for being assholes. There’s certainly a song and dance to doing this effectively.
I don’t really think it should be a gendered expectation but rather an everyone expectation. If someone is being vulnerable with you that wouldn’t otherwise, don’t be an asshole. If someone needs to be called out for exhibiting rude behaviour to someone else, do so in the way that works for your circumstances.
Who is “teaching” them this?
Frankly, I was going to say almost the opposite. Conservatives are appealing to young men by decrying the “woke” process of breaking down those stereotypes. It’s a reaction to those “traditional” masculine traits being challenged by a more enlightened society.
The key is not breaking down those gender norms, but rechanneling that masculine energy and “gender pride” into something healthy and beneficial. We need to reframe the conversation, because when you attack, people instinctively defend. Instead, we should model the new masculinity, one where being tough means being confident enough to stand out or be yourself. Where being a bro means being a friend, not a douchebag. Real men have the strength to admit their faults and ask for help. Real power is punching up, not down, and real bravery is accepting people for who they are.
Contrast someone like Joe Rogan with Pedro Pascal. Which one is a “Real Man™”? Which one should we celebrate and focus on? Boys need role models, because we don’t know how to handle our hormones at an age when everything is confusing. If you tell them their instincts are wrong, they will retreat to a safe space where someone else will tell them that society is wrong and they should be as gross and misogynistic as they can be.
Real men are creative. Real men are kind. Real men are curious. Real men are sincere. Real men admit mistakes and accept consequences. Real men lift others up. Real men are able to ask for help. Real men are comfortable with their sexuality, and are not afraid of exploring their preferences.
All children are born selfish and frightened. We have to learn to be better through empathy. Without positive role models, we cannot learn to overcome those selfish impulses, and we cannot stand up to the bullies that will try to sell the red pill.
Because no matter what we do, there will always be conservative dipshits talking about how oppressed they are because they can’t insult people by calling them “girly” or “gay” or “retarded” anymore. There will always be angry gym rats who think big biceps and a fast car will fix their insecurities. There will always be bullies, and we should always stand up to them.
Also, every boy should watch Ted Lasso. Seriously, there has never been a better breakdown of male stereotypes than that show.
Legit I think it’s to shift the focus away from helping other people for the sake of being nice and onto uniting together to fight a common enemy - the bosses, corporations, etc. Dale the machinist from Alabama isn’t going to go to the protest to protect trans latinx PoC out of the kidness of his own heart but he might if he realizes it’s part of a larger project to go out to take back his rights from the people fucking him over, and fuck over his boss. Young men are drawn to masculinity and militaristic language right now, and left wing politics can be easily framed in those terms. Yes, being good to other people should be good in its own right but a lot of people don’t see it that way and we need to get them on our side too.
Just a small educational heads up, the majority of Hispanic people hate “Latinx”. It’s not even pronounceable in Spanish.
Oh I know, I was just using super stereotypical language. Every Latino I know just says Latino or Hispanic.
Man it’s like the majority of people here don’t have ‘regular guy’ friends.
The way to get to regular dudes, is to make them feel fucking included. Yes, diversity is fucking awesome. Yes, having women in leadership roles is fucking awesome. But for your average guy… who do they have to look up to on the left side of things? In the news? In congress? Who is on the national stage for these things? Who is talking to those people?
There isn’t anyone. There are tons of people talking to other groups of people, but there has been flat out no courting of the white dude demographic outside of White Dudes for Harris (which was brilliant but came too late).
Speak to the issues these guys are facing. Talk about dating. Talk about career struggles. Talk about feeling alone, and feeling vulnerable. And then, talk about solution based problem-solving for these things.
Why do you think the right wing latched onto guys who do the whole personal betterment thing? It’s the same shit that white supremacist groups do. They’ll get you with things that anyone can agree with like ‘Hey man if you work hard you’ll succeed. I fucking believe in you when no one else will.’ Then they go into the right wing bullshit because now they have you at an emotional level.
There is no online left presence doing these things, and there are multiple right wing people doing this shit.
Make a left wing Joe Rogan, and bro-dudes will watch that shit like shit on velcro. But it has to be a dude-bro talking to them. It can’t be Rachel Maddow or AOC, it has to be someone who comes from that background.
People gravitated twoards progressive policies after the great depression, before the cold war.
The cold war was the first time the US made it legal to use propaganda against its own citizens
So basically, people will support progressivism as long as they are educated and don’t have their brains raped by neo-religious and capitalist propaganda from childhood.
It would also help if men weren’t the “target” of every liberation movement.
When you grow up learning everyone thinks you are racist and sexist because of the way you look then that’s real bigotry.
Men don’t get sympathy, neither do whites from non whites.
Starting there would be easier than stopping the propaganda
The reality of this all is rather complex but I think the greatest issue is fundamentally the empathy gap. Men’s issues are not recognized as issues, they’re just dismissed out of hand. I’m talking about the easy things like the sentencing and education gaps.
We need to start the discourse that these are very real problems that are worth addressing.
Another problem I personally run into is how it’s acceptable to discriminate against men, “kill all men” is acceptable but “kill all race” isn’t. Neither should be and we don’t recognize it as a problem, instead defaulting to arguments that are considered horrendous in another context.
If they wanted to address the education gap, wouldn’t they? Why would they want to when trades provide more money, no lost income for 4-5 years, or a crippling debt? Women are at a disadvantage there. I mean, I definitely don’t want to minimize overlooked hardships, but…
You’re paying with your body, the work can be very dangerous, and it takes a while to ramp up to decent pay. On top of that the pay isn’t always going to be better than a degree (iirc research has concluded that lifetime earnings for trades are behind degrees), ignoring countries with sensible tertiary education options.
Trades are not equivalent. And education is still a significant indicator of political alignment.
Honestly, this is a great example of the empathy gap.
What research? There are lots of folks with crippling debts. I know tons of people who will never be rid of their’s. As an engineer, I have never known job security. Who wamts to worry about losing their job every day? But I notice plenty of guys making a lot more than me since trades have a serious shortage of workers. Electricians around here charge whatever they want because there is not enough of them. Hospitals around here are bought up by one entity, so nurses can’t quit and make more money elsewhere. Teachers are quitting in droves such that it’s become a national crisis. But then there are plumbers making 6 figures.
This comment reminds me of a 4chan post, where the poster talks about understanding the difference between anecdotes and statistics, and goes on to say that anyone who responds to a statistic with an anecdote they think disproves it isn’t very intelligent.
You don’t want to be dumber than a 4channer, do you?
Every time I have heard someone say “kill all men” I have immediately dismissed everything else they are saying because their logic is just as rotten as other racists/sexists
How did you dismiss all the leftists in one fell swoop?
If you’re spouting off “kill all men” nonsense you’re not a leftist you’re just a propaganda recycler
So 98% of Lemmy then
Thanks for confirming
Wow you restated your point and pretended it’s what I said. Very clever, you get 5 points, nobody’s ever done that before
If 98% of Lemmy wants to kill all men, that’s a pretty shit state of affairs.
Maybe like, one day you are gonna need the social safety net, even if you’re a very strong cis het guy.
One you’re gonna be old. One day you’re gonna be fired without notice when your car breaks down. One day your girlfriend might have a surprise pregnancy you can’t deal with.
Just brainstorming but I would start with saying, sure this doesn’t benefit you right now, cause you got the luck of the draw, but one day we will all need help
The first thing is that progressives need to stop being intellectually dishonest. The movement needs to admit that the world view is a technocratic one in which the best course of action given the evidence available is the one that will guide the decisions of the movement, not popular sentiment.
As of right now the progressive agenda looks like a mass of contradictions whose only identity is opposition to MAGA and the right with such intensity that the right has in fact co-opted many of the stances that traditionally belonged on the left, losing the support of the working class.
Seen through a Marxist lens, it is not surprising, the progressive movement in the US is not a worker’s movement but rather a managerial class movement.
I agree that we need to be more technocratic as I think democracy is kind of running it’s course in the world. Maga also has a lot of contradictions to be fair
It doesn’t matter what MAGA does or what MAGA is, progressives need to define themselves independently of that. But a popular workers movement it is not. That crown for right or wrong belongs to MAGA.
Seen through a Marxist lens, it is not surprising, the progressive movement in the US is not a worker’s movement but rather a managerial class movement.
And managerial class inherently whores for the regime while pretending to be the “good” guys
That’s not the managerial class.
The managerial class are the office employees, very generally “knowledge workers”.
Maybe stop hating their guts…
