- cross-posted to:
- usa@midwest.social
- cross-posted to:
- usa@midwest.social
The conservative movement has built its case against gender-affirming care on the authority of anachronistic, faulty clinical research.
The conservative movement has built its case against gender-affirming care on the authority of anachronistic, faulty clinical research.
You missed the entire point of the article I think. The point is that what we consider sound science today has a high chance of sounding like absolute nonsense in a few centuries. Therefore saying “read the science” implies that there’s nothing else to discover about the subject. Thats a ridiculous notion.
And frankly, as many trans activists will say sexual orientation has little to do with being transgender, so I don’t see what you think that last sentence bears of relevance to my point. I agree with it though, if that la worth anything.
You can’t refer to the fact that science progresses over time as an excuse to ignore the current state of the art, that’s asinine.
I’m nonbinary. Actual research studies on the efficacy of hormone therapy for nonbinary people only started getting published like 8 years ago, ~20 years too late for me to get on puberty blockers.
I had to wait decades for the medicine that saved me from dysphoria and depression, you don’t get to wield your ignorance on the topic as an argument against other people getting the care their doctors recommend.
But that’s not at all what I’m saying! I’m not saying that we should stop hormone therapy or any of the therapies that have proven effective so far. If you have actually read my arguments all I’m saying is that we need to look into the actual biological root of transgender identity and that for me the evidence points to a neurological divergence.
But you know as well as I do that transgender activists oppose all research that does not begin with the assumption that transgender identity is simple human diversity same as having curly or straight hair (which btw still has biological and evolutionary roots).
The other point I made in my first comment is that we live in a democracy and we know that if there’s one thing that most people are still not on board with is accommodation of transgender people beyond what is already afforded by current civil rights, which is what transgender activists ask for. Sorry to say but in this matter you are at the mercy of the masses, so you’ll need to convince them and I think that finding the root cause of transgender identity is key to that. Because right now, the rhetoric around the topic to everyone that hears it sounds like jumping through a lot of hoops and doing a LOT of mental gymnastics to even avoid the implication that this might be a condition and not simple human diversity. As if suddenly finding out that transgender identity is a neurological condition means that the accepted treatment for it will change or that transgender individuals will be more socially rejected than they currently are.
I mean and maybe we find that hey, there’s actually no neurological basis to this and maybe it’s the hormone theory. But the science needs to be exhaustive and right now politics and ideology is getting in the way of that.
We have documented historical evidence of trans people existing in society for at least three thousand years. If trans folks have existed in every kind of human society imaginable, then it’s pants-on-head stupid to suppose trans identities are anything other than just a natural part of the human condition.
Saying that we need to look into the “biological root” of transgender identity is like saying "we need to look into the biological root of regressives.
The problem is that such statements are political because they pathologies something that is human diversity.
We should also say, and look at the evidence of other cultures who have had trans people. Like native Americans, who treated us with respect. in those societies there were lower suicide rates.
Even among children, when socially supported the suicide rate goes down with social support.
What you’re conflating is the suicide/depression associated with being treated differently to your identity.
Even if it were human diversity there would be a biological root to it. That’s different from a political view. Regressives aren’t born regressive, they become regressives through their particular life experiences. Just like progressives aren’t born progressives.
If the psychological effects of dysphoria were a simply a matter of acceptance then I posit that with acceptance the need to transition would dissipate entirely.
“regressives aren’t born regressive” how do you know? How would we test? How would we evaluate that?
You’ve basically decided, a priori that this is the case.
Just as you’ve decided a priori that being trans is a case of something wrong with people, that can and should be investigated with the view of eliminating it.
Im not sure why you wouldn’t see that as wrong.
I did not decide anything just because, I don’t know if you can see all my replies here but in all of them I have substantiated my claims with logical reasoning where scientific evidence is not available due to a distinct lack of research in that direction.
I also posted one study that suggests some basis to my argument https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34030966/
I’m of saying there’s something to fix, but there’s something that can be treated. Are we fixing adhd people when we give them adderal or are we helping them live a better life? They can choose not to medicate, or to take different avenues of medication like sound therapy etc. Why is it outrageous to suggest that some transgender individuals might have a neurological issue that could be treated with either transition or whatever medical treatment that might come from such a line of inquiry?
“I have substantiated my claims with logical reasoning”
You have not. You also haven’t addressed my a priori claim for yourself. if you don’t do that, you have no business here or reading science without understanding what that means.
“I’m of saying there’s something to be fixed, but something that can be treated”
Fixed = treated. As in your example of ADHD.
Neurological issue means there’s something wrong. And it is pathologising, which is the way we talk about diseases.
Honestly, I think you know all of this and are here to sea lion.
No one is born with any ideology, because ideologies are passed on socially. I’m open to the idea that there might be a predisposition to accepting conservative or regressive policy based on some neurological factors, why not? I’ve seen some studies thrown around to suggest that. But to claim that anyone can be born with any ideology does not pass any common sense, logical or empirical test. If that were the case people would be unable to change their stances, but people change ideology many times in their lives. Sometimes subtly other times in big ways. Depending what life throws at them.
Happy? Does that make me qualified to discuss this in good faith with you?
But you know what yes, you are right in one thing I am saying that there’s something that maybe could be fixed. It’s up to the individual to accept the fix if one were to exist. I’m not suggesting that this is a settle thing, but rather something that we should look into. I could be completely wrong, but we don’t know that because no one will fund this line of inquiry.
And I do not necessarily think that it applies to all cases of gender dysphoria either. Some might have purely social causes, other might be caused by a mix of genetics and social (as the case with intersex persons).
My problem is that this is seen as some kind of heresy and the door is absolutely barred to even exploring the notion of a pathological cause to some cases of gender dysphoria. At a logical level I understand the defensiveness, but it’s just not intellectually honest.
Hence the slogan “Trans rights are human rights”. We don’t need “accomodation”, we just need the same right to bodily autonomy that’s afforded to everyone else. Opposition to trans rights is just the tip of the same spear currently stabbing at women’s rights, gay folks’ rights, and minority rights in general.
Whether or not other people are “on board” with the individual right to self-determination is entirely irrelevant. Either trans kids can get the medicine they and their doctors agree is best, or our government has pulled a China and taken the right to make your own medical decisions away from you. There is no middle ground.
Just like how finding the gay gene was going to bring equality to gays, right?
No, I’m afraid I can’t take you seriously. You’re “just asking questions” and about issues that were settled over 40 years ago and pretending at reasonable dissent based on nothing more substantial than 90’s talk radio talking points.
Again, please read an actual research paper from a reputable medical or psychological association. Take your time with it and google all the $5 science words that aren’t familiar to you. You’ll learn a lot more that way.
I’m not asking questions I’m making statements, very clear ones. And I reject the notion that anything is settled, if that were the case we should just stop all research about everything. What ridiculous anti scientific notion is that?Nothing is settled because science is ever evolving, especially so when social sciences are involved, because they are inherently inaccurate.
The available science at any moment is based on the lines of inquiry that are being investigated and very few people have investigated in the line I suggest because:
But for what it’s worth the scant research there is does suggests that there may be basis to my theory
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34030966/
Again why not follow the line of inquiry and if it isn’t it isn’t. Why the opposition to investigating anything at all?
The opposition is because you’re treating us as a condition to be fixed instead of who we are. You’re essentially saying, or it at least is coming off as such, that “you’re wrong, I know who you are better than you. It doesn’t matter what historically has worked to make life better for you, and it doesn’t matter what your lived experience is, I know better than you. If we can just numb the part that makes you different, I won’t have to look at people like you anymore. Wouldn’t you rather my cure?”
Pretending like people are a condition to be fixed is why you get pushback. Some people are trans, and some experience gender dysphoria. Making dysphoria less painful in some hypothetical future sense doesn’t make us not who we are. Trans men are men. Trans women are women. Telling them they’re wrong because it makes you uncomfortable isn’t going to be popular with anyone who knows or supports any trans person.
Every single thing you said there is your twisted interpretation of what I have said because I’ve never said anything to such effect and in fact have at various times doubled down on the fact that I agree that the treatments w heave now are the best and therefore they should continue. But we should strive to know more and to find more, it’s what science does, it’s what humans do.
I’m opposed to the idea that we know all there is to know about it and that we should not inquire further because it makes you uncomfortable that we might discover that you simply have a brain thats wired differently. Do you think that will change a lot other than opening the door to other courses of treatment? I know why it would make you uncomfortable but frankly the sheer opposition to the simple notion of investigating it makes you look as completely disingenuous when you cite science to back up any of your claims. I already said before that the ideal scenario is that all options are presented to the person and they choose the one that’s best for them if such an alternative treatment were possible.
And you keep making baseless assumptions about me, putting words in my mouth and attacking me when I have not once personally attacked you. With that I have no need for further evidence that you in fact do not have proof to conclusively disprove what I’m suggesting, meanwhile I have provided proof that what I’m saying has some basis to it.
And frankly I want to get pushback when I make any claim, because I’m always open to changing my mind when provided with evidence. But all people have offered is mental gymnastics to avoid acknowledging that there might be an actual condition underlying. Like imagine if ADHD people made a fuss about people not researching the roots of what ails them? This is how his sounds to me.
Again if it were simple human variance, there would be a biological mechanism to accommodate for it and it would not cause severe psychological distress. Even with social acceptance transitioning is necessary in most cases, so there’s clearly something not right with how the brain and the body are wired. Someone else posted an article citing that humans sexuality can be a spectrum in the sense that some people who absolutely look like the phenotype representative of one of the sexes might still have genetic characteristics of the opposite sex, and I readily accept that as an almost obvious fact. But if that’s the case, why do some among us face some kind of distress for not exhibiting the characteristics of a particular sex while others have no obvious mental distress walking around having chromosomes that suggest dual sexuality? Why are there androgynous people that exhibit absolutely no disphoria?
Like I’ve read intersex people describe their gender dysphoria and to me it sounds different from the gender dysphoria suffered by non intersex transgender individuals . Because for the latter it’s more based on not being the gender they’ve been treated as or were assigned at birth while the former is about not identifying with the body they have. That to me suggests that there might be different roots of dysphoria and that one of them in particular might be neurological. But how do we prove or disprove something if we do not research it?
Buddy, I’m not attacking you. I’m explaining. That’s why you’re getting pushback. Take from that what you want, but that’s how you’re coming across in my view.
This, this right here.
Immediately going absurdist maximalism about it, very “I’m just making statements” sort of statement.
I’m not saying we shouldn’t do research, I’m saying that our research should be oriented towards improving the quality of life, not “figuring out why queer people are that way”.
The three questions I want answered are: what is to be done about the primary stressors that degrade trans people’s lives (I.E., transphobia), what causes hormone therapy to be such an effective treatment for gender dysphoria, and can we map the phase-space of endocrine system responses to better assist those (cis or trans) who have a need for hormone therapy?
Identifying something is the first step in exterminating it, lets’ maybe not go looking for the trans equivalent of the gay gene that conspiratorial conservatives still believe to be real and instead go looking for ways to help people not be assholes to us.