I’ve been waiting until after Christmas day to make this post, but some of our communities recently have had a lot of noise and upset over someone that uses neopronouns that most people are unfamiliar with.
So I want to make this clear. A persons pronouns are to be respected. This is true when the user is using neopronouns that you’re unfamiliar with. It’s true even if you think someone is trolling. Pronouns are not rewards for good behaviour. They aren’t only to be respected when you like the person you’re interacting with, or if their pronouns “make sense” to you. Trolls, spammers, twitter users, it doesn’t matter who they are, your options are to respect their pronouns, or to not engage with them.
I really want to re-iterate the importance of this. Gender diverse folk are undermined, invalidated and questioned at every step of our lives. As a community, we need to be working to undo that, not creating more of it, and that means there is no space for treating pronouns (including neopronouns) as a reward for good behaviour.
This isn’t a free reign for trolls and spammers. The rules still apply. Trolling, spamming, etc will continue to be dealt with, but it’s not an excuse to act as if respecting someones pronouns is optional.
As Cishet white-ish person, who is only tangentially connected to this community IRL, but wants to be supportive, is there a definitive list of pronouns? It seems to me and many other people that if you just keep adding more and more, people get confused and or feel alienated and then some people get angry when confused, because they get frustrated and don’t want to do the wrong thing.
I usually default to “they” unless absolutely told, because It seems that once it gets so individualized, things go a bit nuts. We may as well just abolish all pronouns and only use proper nouns.
Side question, I’m neurodiverse (diagnosed ADHD, probably a bit on the spectrum), I feel very very weird before coming out to people, especially at work, as I think it will be used against me. There are still places in this world that would hurt/imprison/kill non-cis, non-hetero people. With such an interconnected world, especially with those places, how does one handle it while also trying to keep being proud of your identity? Wouldn’t putting neo pronouns in a profile open you up for targeting?
Neopronouns are valid as hell and all these people who refuse to acknowledge that fact are by definition transphobic.
You cannot claim to support trans people while declaring a subgroup to be invalid because you think they’re not doing it the right way. You are not an ally unless you support all trans people, people who use neopronouns are not the problem, you are.
Policing trans people makes you a transphobe.
Lots of people in here who don’t get pronouns or trans people, for those I recommend this article:
There’s a very real chance you guys might be agender cis, which is super fascinating because it’s barely looked into, due to how agender cis people usually don’t even know that their experience isn’t universal.
What a great article
It really is, I thought I was one of the only people to think that Agender might be really common but just hidden because many people who don’t feel gender can blend in as cis or not even know they’re Agender. Obviously we’ll probably never really know for sure but I do think it’s likely that many of the people out there who don’t feel gender or don’t think about gender are very likely Agender.
I also saw a meme a while back that said animals are Agender because they don’t give so much thought to gender the way humans do.
If you like exploring the unknown reaches of identity, I’ve got some articles I think you’ll like.
https://medium.com/@viridiangrail/on-spiritual-genders-b4152c4503cb
https://medium.com/@viridiangrail/introduction-to-capitalised-pronouns-f5140e722b48
https://medium.com/@viridiangrail/the-nested-structure-of-gender-identity-75681e3cfa34
My only concern is that people (or one person in particular) aren’t genuine, but are doing to to discredit trans people, and the concept of gender fluidity in general. Kind of an extension of the “one joke” conservatives have (“hurr durr, I identify as an attack helicopter”).
Obviously I can’t say for sure that’s what is happening, but I’ve read some of their comments that set off some red flags for me that maybe this person isn’t being genuine.
I personally err on the side of caution, so I’d never purposely insult this person by calling them “him” or “her,” but they’ll remain a “they” to me, as that is still gender-agnostic not offensive to someone with “neopronouns” (as far as I understand it).
It doesn’t really matter what you think about the person, the point is to take their word for it. If making people accept neopronouns is trolling then it’s not a bad thing and I am personally not upset by it. If that did somehow “discredit” me I would argue that it only reflects badly on those who think my acceptance of it is bad, they are using it as a weak excuse to attack me.
Using they may be considered misgendering if you know that that person doesn’t also go by they, neo-pronouns or otherwise.
It makes a mockery of real gender issues. I fully support anyone who wants to be anywhere on the spectrum of existing genders. What I’m not sure I support is indulging people’s possible mental illness by pretending it’s ok that they believe they’re a fictional creature that only exists in fantasy.
I’m really not trying to sound callous or offend anyone, but that’s just not the same thing and I don’t believe it should be treated with the same level of seriousness as actual gender fluidity.
We know that it is possible for people to be assigned one sex at birth, but then fit anywhere in the spectrum. We also know that it is not possible for someone’s gender to be “unicorn.” Because unicorns aren’t real, and even if they were, they are not on the human gender spectrum.
I’m sure everyone will tell me how I’m wrong but whatever. This has nothing to do with transphobia. The opposite, in fact.
When people on the left legitimize these people’s obviously absurd claims, it is used as a cudgel to harm the trans community. It legitimizes all of those stupid, “litter boxes in schools” things in many people’s minds. It does more harm than good.
Seriously. I’m fine with neopronouns that relate to the actual gender binary or spectrum. Something that says you’re male, female, somewhere in between, some oscillating state along the spectrum, or even a pronoun saying you don’t exist along the spectrum at all. But the key distinction here is that any neopronoun must relate back to the male/female gender spectrum. Otherwise you’re not describing gender, you are describing personality traits. Every personality trait and characteristic is not a gender.
I don’t quite understand your point, how can a pronoun denote that one is ‘somewhere in between male and female’ or even express more complex state as in your example? The idea looks impossible to implement to me, an example would definitely help
The umbrella term for this is nonbinary, and people often use they, or if they use neopronouns it’s something like xir.
The parent commenter’s point is that nonbinary identities typically relate back to the conventional gender spectrum in some way, whereas dragon does not and seems more like a fursona or character trait thing.
This is not made easier by the fact that “dragon” is a proper noun, and in fiction there are male and female dragons.
I like how you used arguments that were/are used by T-exclusive LGB folks to dehumanize a different marginalized group and Lemmy users just ate it up.
It makes a mockery of real [gender issues | issues homosexuals deal with]. I fully support anyone who wants to [be anywhere on the spectrum of existing genders | live openly with their partner of the same sex]. What I’m not sure I support is indulging people’s possible mental illness by pretending it’s ok that they believe [they’re a fictional creature that only exists in fantasy | can just change their sex to the opposite].
You even used the “they’re just mentally ill” argument against them, you don’t even try to hide that you’re just riding a wave of what’s socially accepted already and what’s not yet.
I fully support anyone who wants to be anywhere on the spectrum of existing genders.
Can you list all these genders you accept so I know which ones are pure fantasy for you? Y’know, mere twenty years ago most people wouldn’t say more than two of them.
We know that it is possible for people to be assigned one sex at birth, but then fit anywhere in the spectrum. We also know that it is not possible for someone’s gender to be “unicorn.” Because unicorns aren’t real
“Men” and “women” are just social roles made up in the Stone Age and changed somewhat during the centuries of human history, that are just so happened to be bound to our genitals. There’s nothing real about it.
When people on the left legitimize these people’s obviously absurd claims, it is used as a cudgel to harm the trans community.
Are we politicians or what? Why should we make our identity ‘presentable’ for bigots?
What I’m not sure I support is indulging people’s possible mental illness by pretending it’s ok that they believe they’re a fictional creature that only exists in fantasy.
Good thing no one asked you.
i could identify as a unicorn if i want and for you to think you need to fight against that makes you a bad person. Who are you to say the self images others can or cannot have?
If you think you can just identify as something at will, you don’t understand gender. That attitude is an insult to the entire transgender community. Gender identity is not some fun feather you just stick in your cap. It’s an immutable trait. You don’t choose your gender identity, you simply have one.
That’s maybe the most helpful argument I read here, I think I should reconsider what neopronouns are about.
If you think that gender is immutable, you are the one with the misunderstanding around gender. What do you think trans people change when they transition if not their gender?
Gender is a performance. You absolutely can change it or choose not to perform it altogether. Please educate yourself.
What’s the worst thing that will happen if an obviously moronic masculine-presenting person says “hurr durr my pronouns are balls/sack” and you do what they ask and use those pronouns? Will they play along? Will they be offended? What’s a desirable outcome? What’s an undesirable outcome?
I was specifically talking about a user here who refers to themselves as a dragon, speaks in the third person calling themselves a dragon each sentence, insists that everyone they interact with on here also refers to them that way (also some other red flags like about how there is clearly some sort of kink aspect to this for them and their dragon partner), and gets people banned for questioning it.
I wouldn’t say I have a problem with the concept of neopronouns as a whole, though that’s more because I just haven’t thought enough about it to have an informed opinion.
But, to answer your question with respect to the behavior of the user I was referring to:
For transphobic people who are pushing an anti-trans agenda to gullible idiots who are already, at the very least, borderline homophobic, it legitimizes all of those “libruls want to put litter boxes in your kids’ schools!” trans panic, bullshit.
It shows that there are people on the left who are willing to take it a few steps too far, and indulge in people’s possible mental illness where they believe their gender is a non-existent, fantasy creature. Something that’s literally not possible as it is not on the human gender spectrum. At least not as I understand it.
I’m sure people will tell me how I’m wrong.
If we have to have gender-specific pronouns, sure. While well-intentioned, that approach will never be perfect, it’s STILL categorising people into smaller and smaller groupings in contexts where categorisation is unnecessary. We’re jumping through linguistic loops so complicated that we need cue-cards for, when we could just use gender-neutral pronouns universally.
Bespoke pronouns are also only a “solution” in English, which (mostly) has no gender-specific suffixes for nouns. In the spirit of inclusivity German has recently misguidedly settled on just repeating the noun with male and female suffixes, “I have to go to the hairdresser or hairdresseress”. Unarguably more quantitatively inclusive, this grammatical monstrosity is also more severely excluding people that fit in neither category. The answer isn’t “everyone should additionally specify their own suffixes so we can list off more variations” but rather to stop caring what gender cuts your hair altogether. Hairdresser can be a gender-neutral word. Here’s to them.
Unless someones pronouns are in their username they’re getting a “they” from me. Nothing against xe/xim/xir but i ain’t checking every profile of every person I debate about whether Sonic would be tempted or double tempted by the One Ring.
