I’ve been waiting until after Christmas day to make this post, but some of our communities recently have had a lot of noise and upset over someone that uses neopronouns that most people are unfamiliar with.
So I want to make this clear. A persons pronouns are to be respected. This is true when the user is using neopronouns that you’re unfamiliar with. It’s true even if you think someone is trolling. Pronouns are not rewards for good behaviour. They aren’t only to be respected when you like the person you’re interacting with, or if their pronouns “make sense” to you. Trolls, spammers, twitter users, it doesn’t matter who they are, your options are to respect their pronouns, or to not engage with them.
I really want to re-iterate the importance of this. Gender diverse folk are undermined, invalidated and questioned at every step of our lives. As a community, we need to be working to undo that, not creating more of it, and that means there is no space for treating pronouns (including neopronouns) as a reward for good behaviour.
This isn’t a free reign for trolls and spammers. The rules still apply. Trolling, spamming, etc will continue to be dealt with, but it’s not an excuse to act as if respecting someones pronouns is optional.
As Cishet white-ish person, who is only tangentially connected to this community IRL, but wants to be supportive, is there a definitive list of pronouns? It seems to me and many other people that if you just keep adding more and more, people get confused and or feel alienated and then some people get angry when confused, because they get frustrated and don’t want to do the wrong thing.
I usually default to “they” unless absolutely told, because It seems that once it gets so individualized, things go a bit nuts. We may as well just abolish all pronouns and only use proper nouns.
Side question, I’m neurodiverse (diagnosed ADHD, probably a bit on the spectrum), I feel very very weird before coming out to people, especially at work, as I think it will be used against me. There are still places in this world that would hurt/imprison/kill non-cis, non-hetero people. With such an interconnected world, especially with those places, how does one handle it while also trying to keep being proud of your identity? Wouldn’t putting neo pronouns in a profile open you up for targeting?
Neopronouns are valid as hell and all these people who refuse to acknowledge that fact are by definition transphobic.
You cannot claim to support trans people while declaring a subgroup to be invalid because you think they’re not doing it the right way. You are not an ally unless you support all trans people, people who use neopronouns are not the problem, you are.
Policing trans people makes you a transphobe.
Lots of people in here who don’t get pronouns or trans people, for those I recommend this article:
There’s a very real chance you guys might be agender cis, which is super fascinating because it’s barely looked into, due to how agender cis people usually don’t even know that their experience isn’t universal.
What a great article
Haha, look who it is. Love the article, a few of my friends have realized they also might be agender from it.
Thank you! I’d love to blow your mind a few more times if you’re interested in reading the rest of My stuff https://medium.com/@viridiangrail/you-already-think-like-a-soulist-fe1723151b85
It really is, I thought I was one of the only people to think that Agender might be really common but just hidden because many people who don’t feel gender can blend in as cis or not even know they’re Agender. Obviously we’ll probably never really know for sure but I do think it’s likely that many of the people out there who don’t feel gender or don’t think about gender are very likely Agender.
I also saw a meme a while back that said animals are Agender because they don’t give so much thought to gender the way humans do.
If you like exploring the unknown reaches of identity, I’ve got some articles I think you’ll like.
https://medium.com/@viridiangrail/on-spiritual-genders-b4152c4503cb
https://medium.com/@viridiangrail/introduction-to-capitalised-pronouns-f5140e722b48
https://medium.com/@viridiangrail/the-nested-structure-of-gender-identity-75681e3cfa34
Thanks for sharing this. As an older person working to sort out their gender identity later on in life it’s nice to have more ideas to consider.
I’ve wondered if gender identity is a bit like our other senses where we can practice and get better at discerning the signals we’ve always been receiving, but haven’t always known what they mean.
How much is trainable and how much is innate.
Anyway thanks again for sharing this.
It sure is trainable to some extent. I didn’t think I suffered from gender dysphoria when I first realised I was trans. I was only able to connect with gender euphoria to realise My identity. But after I experimented with My gender and tried on some new pronouns and self-images, I realised I hated being a male. I was miserable, but I wasn’t able to see My misery, because I thought it was just life. It’s like when someone with tinnitus doesn’t even realise they have it, because they’ve forgotten what silence sounds like. When I started thinking of Myself as trans, I experienced that metaphorical silence, and then I could hear the metaphorical ringing that was My dysphoria.
My only concern is that people (or one person in particular) aren’t genuine, but are doing to to discredit trans people, and the concept of gender fluidity in general. Kind of an extension of the “one joke” conservatives have (“hurr durr, I identify as an attack helicopter”).
Obviously I can’t say for sure that’s what is happening, but I’ve read some of their comments that set off some red flags for me that maybe this person isn’t being genuine.
I personally err on the side of caution, so I’d never purposely insult this person by calling them “him” or “her,” but they’ll remain a “they” to me, as that is still gender-agnostic not offensive to someone with “neopronouns” (as far as I understand it).
It doesn’t really matter what you think about the person, the point is to take their word for it. If making people accept neopronouns is trolling then it’s not a bad thing and I am personally not upset by it. If that did somehow “discredit” me I would argue that it only reflects badly on those who think my acceptance of it is bad, they are using it as a weak excuse to attack me.
Using they may be considered misgendering if you know that that person doesn’t also go by they, neo-pronouns or otherwise.
It makes a mockery of real gender issues. I fully support anyone who wants to be anywhere on the spectrum of existing genders. What I’m not sure I support is indulging people’s possible mental illness by pretending it’s ok that they believe they’re a fictional creature that only exists in fantasy.
I’m really not trying to sound callous or offend anyone, but that’s just not the same thing and I don’t believe it should be treated with the same level of seriousness as actual gender fluidity.
We know that it is possible for people to be assigned one sex at birth, but then fit anywhere in the spectrum. We also know that it is not possible for someone’s gender to be “unicorn.” Because unicorns aren’t real, and even if they were, they are not on the human gender spectrum.
I’m sure everyone will tell me how I’m wrong but whatever. This has nothing to do with transphobia. The opposite, in fact.
When people on the left legitimize these people’s obviously absurd claims, it is used as a cudgel to harm the trans community. It legitimizes all of those stupid, “litter boxes in schools” things in many people’s minds. It does more harm than good.
I like how you used arguments that were/are used by T-exclusive LGB folks to dehumanize a different marginalized group and Lemmy users just ate it up.
It makes a mockery of real [gender issues | issues homosexuals deal with]. I fully support anyone who wants to [be anywhere on the spectrum of existing genders | live openly with their partner of the same sex]. What I’m not sure I support is indulging people’s possible mental illness by pretending it’s ok that they believe [they’re a fictional creature that only exists in fantasy | can just change their sex to the opposite].
You even used the “they’re just mentally ill” argument against them, you don’t even try to hide that you’re just riding a wave of what’s socially accepted already and what’s not yet.
I fully support anyone who wants to be anywhere on the spectrum of existing genders.
Can you list all these genders you accept so I know which ones are pure fantasy for you? Y’know, mere twenty years ago most people wouldn’t say more than two of them.
We know that it is possible for people to be assigned one sex at birth, but then fit anywhere in the spectrum. We also know that it is not possible for someone’s gender to be “unicorn.” Because unicorns aren’t real
“Men” and “women” are just social roles made up in the Stone Age and changed somewhat during the centuries of human history, that are just so happened to be bound to our genitals. There’s nothing real about it.
When people on the left legitimize these people’s obviously absurd claims, it is used as a cudgel to harm the trans community.
Are we politicians or what? Why should we make our identity ‘presentable’ for bigots?
What I’m not sure I support is indulging people’s possible mental illness by pretending it’s ok that they believe they’re a fictional creature that only exists in fantasy.
Good thing no one asked you.
Seriously. I’m fine with neopronouns that relate to the actual gender binary or spectrum. Something that says you’re male, female, somewhere in between, some oscillating state along the spectrum, or even a pronoun saying you don’t exist along the spectrum at all. But the key distinction here is that any neopronoun must relate back to the male/female gender spectrum. Otherwise you’re not describing gender, you are describing personality traits. Every personality trait and characteristic is not a gender.
I don’t quite understand your point, how can a pronoun denote that one is ‘somewhere in between male and female’ or even express more complex state as in your example? The idea looks impossible to implement to me, an example would definitely help
The umbrella term for this is nonbinary, and people often use they, or if they use neopronouns it’s something like xir.
The parent commenter’s point is that nonbinary identities typically relate back to the conventional gender spectrum in some way, whereas dragon does not and seems more like a fursona or character trait thing.
This is not made easier by the fact that “dragon” is a proper noun, and in fiction there are male and female dragons.
i could identify as a unicorn if i want and for you to think you need to fight against that makes you a bad person. Who are you to say the self images others can or cannot have?
If you think you can just identify as something at will, you don’t understand gender. That attitude is an insult to the entire transgender community. Gender identity is not some fun feather you just stick in your cap. It’s an immutable trait. You don’t choose your gender identity, you simply have one.
If you think that gender is immutable, you are the one with the misunderstanding around gender. What do you think trans people change when they transition if not their gender?
Gender is a performance. You absolutely can change it or choose not to perform it altogether. Please educate yourself.
That’s maybe the most helpful argument I read here, I think I should reconsider what neopronouns are about.
What’s the worst thing that will happen if an obviously moronic masculine-presenting person says “hurr durr my pronouns are balls/sack” and you do what they ask and use those pronouns? Will they play along? Will they be offended? What’s a desirable outcome? What’s an undesirable outcome?
I was specifically talking about a user here who refers to themselves as a dragon, speaks in the third person calling themselves a dragon each sentence, insists that everyone they interact with on here also refers to them that way (also some other red flags like about how there is clearly some sort of kink aspect to this for them and their dragon partner), and gets people banned for questioning it.
I wouldn’t say I have a problem with the concept of neopronouns as a whole, though that’s more because I just haven’t thought enough about it to have an informed opinion.
But, to answer your question with respect to the behavior of the user I was referring to:
For transphobic people who are pushing an anti-trans agenda to gullible idiots who are already, at the very least, borderline homophobic, it legitimizes all of those “libruls want to put litter boxes in your kids’ schools!” trans panic, bullshit.
It shows that there are people on the left who are willing to take it a few steps too far, and indulge in people’s possible mental illness where they believe their gender is a non-existent, fantasy creature. Something that’s literally not possible as it is not on the human gender spectrum. At least not as I understand it.
I’m sure people will tell me how I’m wrong.
If we have to have gender-specific pronouns, sure. While well-intentioned, that approach will never be perfect, it’s STILL categorising people into smaller and smaller groupings in contexts where categorisation is unnecessary. We’re jumping through linguistic loops so complicated that we need cue-cards for, when we could just use gender-neutral pronouns universally.
Bespoke pronouns are also only a “solution” in English, which (mostly) has no gender-specific suffixes for nouns. In the spirit of inclusivity German has recently misguidedly settled on just repeating the noun with male and female suffixes, “I have to go to the hairdresser or hairdresseress”. Unarguably more quantitatively inclusive, this grammatical monstrosity is also more severely excluding people that fit in neither category. The answer isn’t “everyone should additionally specify their own suffixes so we can list off more variations” but rather to stop caring what gender cuts your hair altogether. Hairdresser can be a gender-neutral word. Here’s to them.
Unless someones pronouns are in their username they’re getting a “they” from me. Nothing against xe/xim/xir but i ain’t checking every profile of every person I debate about whether Sonic would be tempted or double tempted by the One Ring.
I don’t care for neopronouns, but it also doesn’t matter what I think. If it’s REALLY a problem for me, like that person who’s gender identity is divinity and the pronouns that person uses are capitalized, I just won’t refer to that person. (Seriously, that does bother me, not that person’s gender in general but referring to anyone, fictional or not, Like This.)
I see that case as an anomalous one because the tension I personally have there is: a person may be a god, but that doesn’t make that person my god, and I shouldn’t be required to behave worshipfully towards a god I don’t follow. I may choose to follow other religions’ conventions around how they refer to their gods and/or prophets in some contexts, but the idea of not having a choice in matters of religion makes me deeply uncomfortable. Respect between equals, which is what using a person’s pronouns generally is, should be automatic, but deference to authority should be earned in my book.
I don’t think using someone’s preferred pronoun capitalisation is a worship thing. On My antirealist discord server, capitalised pronouns are the default. If you want lowercase pronouns, you have to pick a role that says so.
I’ve met people who thought capitalised pronouns were a matter of religion. But I’ve also met people who think “he” and “she” pronouns are a matter of religion. They think their gender identities are handed down to them by Elohim, and refusing to use someone’s god-given pronouns is a form of disrespect against their god. They say “My god doesn’t make mistakes”, and think their religious beliefs are a reason to misgender people. I think that if treating people decently means decoupling pronouns from religion, then everyone should decouple pronouns from religion.
Very true. I do hope that the one or two trolls who instigated this post stop getting free rein to start drama. Pronouns should be respected, narcissism should not.
You probably don’t know this, but hatred of narcissism is historically related to conservative social philosophy. https://medium.com/@viridiangrail/why-reactionaries-hate-pride-and-narcissists-938d39261f13
I’ve had to deal with a lot of narcissistic people in my life, I really don’t like narcissists.
There’s a big difference between pride and narcissism. Though they can easily go hand I’m hand.
As far as I’m aware, the difference is that the word “narcissism” is historically associated with asexuals and the mentally ill, while the word “pride” has no overt political connotations.
A while ago I wrote an open letter to people who were abused by parents with NPD and who blame the disorder. I don’t know if that’s you, but if it is, here’s what I wrote: https://medium.com/@viridiangrail/your-parent-with-npd-chose-to-abuse-you-f7ac23e0427a
Coskiis’ stance on pronouns is very simple. Coskii will respect anyones pronouns up until those pronouns are more complicated than a beings name. At which point Coskii uses the beings name instead of any pronouns. Pronouns are meant to be a conversational shortcut. If a shortcut is not being made, Coskii does not feel the need to use pronouns.
Neopronouns are (generally) not more complicated than a beings name. Exceptions do exist.
Writing a message without using pronouns for explicit understanding of how and why pronouns exist in English in the first place, including personal pronouns, is certainly a mood. The flow of sentences is somewhere between legal and caveman. Not using pronouns leaves no wiggle room for any interpretation on the subject being discussed, however the lack of personal pronouns means Coskii must always refer to Coskii as Coskii. Thank goodness Coskii is not a terribly long name.
questopm for coskii: i has 3 character name, would coskii pick to using just max or he hims orboth meows? a lso woild coskii use they thems for max ? (like if didnt know max preferres hehims)
For Max, I would use he/hims, they/thems, or whatever other pronouns Max would prefer. Max is a shortcut in and of itself. Maxwell, Maximilian, Maxine, or Maximus can all be Max.
If Max were to decide that Maxs’ pronouns were Maxillaries/Maximilleficint, I would at that point likely just refer to Max as Max. As at that point I feel that what has been made are no longer pronouns, but situational proper nouns.
By a much more extreme example, if Max has a flowchart/spreadsheet of pronouns that are time/date sensative, such as changing pronouns according to the current astrological sign + day of the week/phase of the moon, Max is being called Max.
How do you reconcile this with people wanting to be called longhand versions of their names? ex: John wants to be called Johnathan, we would respect that, but if John says their pronouns are Johnathan/ Johnithian, would you still call them John?
I understand the question you are attempting to ask. However within this example if John decided that Johnathon/Johnithian are what John would like as pronouns, but somehow is simultaneously fine with being called John as a name… I believe you would find most people would use John rather than similar and longer names as pronouns (to avoid confusion mostly). If John prefers to be referred to as Johnathon, then most people would follow that or split off entirely and pick up a nickname.
Idealogically anyone should be able to use whatever pronouns they’d like with no rules, limits, or caveats.
Realistically (for now/me), my social interactions are not high enough on my layers of priority, particularly with new groups, that I would consider the need to commit most or really any of anyones’ pronouns to memory. As using those pronouns would require me to speak about someone other than myself, to someone who is not the direct recipient of those words. Being the hermit that I am, my comments throughout nearly the entirety of my time on Lemmy or other online social spaces reaching back to nearly the beginning of my time online does not need or use third person pronouns an absolutely vast amount of those interactions in that time.
As a completely off topic anecdote, the only time I can remember using third person pronouns semi often was while on a forum for the original halo game in which I’d attempt to decipher the horrendous typos and extra keystrokes of people I can only assume were younger children asking questions about the game.
