- cross-posted to:
- worldnews@lemmit.online
- cross-posted to:
- worldnews@lemmit.online
Prime Minister Mark Carney has asked for a review of Canada’s plan to purchase a fleet of F-35 fighter jets.
The deal with Lockheed Martin and the U.S. government is for 88 planes at a cost of about US$85 million each.
A spokesperson for Defence Minister Bill Blair said Carney has asked Blair to look into whether the F-35 contract is the best investment for Canada, or if there are better options.
“We need to do our homework given the changing environment, and make sure that the contract in its current form is in the best interests of Canadians and the Canadian Armed Forces,” Blair’s press secretary Laurent de Casanove said.
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I’m glad you’re doing this, but ultimately sad because love is irrational and I love the F-35.
Prime Minister Carney, I have several better solutions. Cancel the F-35 and examine the Saab JAS-39 Gripen, Dassault Rafael, or the Eurofighter Typhoon.
Canada. Doesn’t. Need. Fighter. Jets.
Maybe you should pay better attention to what is going on in the world right now.
Is Russia going to invade Canada? 🙄
I fucking hate how liberals have turned into NatSec war hawks and are demanding every country from Canada to Portugal buy more fucking fighter jets. Instead of wasting money on the MIC how about they invest in their people?
Trump has said on multiple occasions that Canada WILL become the 51st state. In order to keep at least a modicum of democracy alive here we must fight to save it, because every form of diplomacy we’ve tried has failed.
Trump wants Canada under his thumb, and when someone tells you who they are and what they want, believe them.
So yes, we need everything we can get to help the nation survive, including fighter jets … although tbf I’m not even sure we’d get them in time. But we have to try, no matter what.
If that’s not your thing, fine. You have every right to choose differently. But don’t condemn those of us who are willing to fight.
Trump says a lot of stupid shit.
But let’s entertain the idea that he’s serious and that he will be allowed to start a war on Canada. Do you think Canada can buy enough jets to even matter? Can you even imagine how much that would cost? Is there even enough productive capacity in the world for those jets to be delivered in less than ten years? Come on.
If it comes to a fight against the US the best strategy is guerilla warfare. It’s been tried and tested from Vietnam to Iraq!
Trump says a lot of stupid shit.
Yes he does, but strangely enough he’s followed through with a lot more of it in his 2.0 incarnation.
Do you think Canada can buy enough jets to even matter?
As I said previously I’m not even sure we could have any delivered before the conflict began. But that shouldn’t negate us at least trying.
Can you even imagine how much that would cost?
Yes, billions of dollars.
Would you also recommend that Ukraine stop spending money it doesn’t have to fight Russia? I sure hope not.
Is there even enough productive capacity in the world for those jets to be delivered in less than ten years?
Already answered more than once.
If it comes to a fight against the US the best strategy is guerilla warfare.
Agreed. That is what we will end up in. I’m wondering why you wouldn’t want more fighting power tho?
Jets are notoriously bad for guerilla warfare. They require long straight runways that are incredibly hard to hide or move, they require serious maintenance that is hard to do in the field (if you can even land them “in the field”), they require massive amounts of training to be used effectively. There’s a reason Ukraine takes out more jets at bases than in the air - it’s just easier.
Any successful military action by Canada against the United States isn’t going to be conventional. Piles of drones (and other equipment) would give far more bang for the buck.
Would you also recommend that Ukraine stop spending money it doesn’t have to fight Russia? I sure hope not.
This is a complicated matter.
I would recommend Ukraine stop indebting itself to the Western MIC by spending money it doesn’t have fighting to the last Ukrainian, and refocus the war effort on a protracted people’s war against the invasion. That means not kidnapping unwilling people off the street to die in the front lines, instead refocusing the war efforts on longer term guerilla tactics and entrenchment in the territory they do control. This does mean losing territory in areas where the people are more sympathetic to invading Russian forces, which might be the case in Crimea and the Donbass region. Guerillas can’t fight without support from the masses.
Fight like the Vietminh. Fight like Hamas. That is how you repel a stronger occupying military force.
If we apply this to Canada, the question becomes: are there regions of Canada that might be more sympathetic to the US than to their own Canadian government? I don’t think so, since unlike the situation with Ukraine the only lingual minority is French speaking and they might dislike the US even more than the rest of Canada! So, the situation is different.
Agreed. That is what we will end up in. I’m wondering why you wouldn’t want more fighting power tho?
I don’t think it’s the most prudent use of military funds. The jets will be destroyed in weeks or less.
Guerillas can fight for years and decades, and that’s what they should be prepared for instead of wasting money on military boondoggles. They should be entrenching themselves with bunkers, tunnels, and be prepared for a long defense. This is why they need to invest in their people - Canadians will embrace guerrilla resistance if they know that Canadian independence is in their material interests.
Jets are just a waste.
Canada could do the funniest thing rn by buying J-35s at half the price.
Yeah, those are definitely safe from tampering.
The purpose of buying jets from someone other than America is to reduce America’s influence over Canada, why would China sabotage that?
The US can remotely disable an F-35… China, I’d expect can do the same for a J-35.
I don’t think the above poster doubts their ability, only that they might be less incentivized to do so compared to, say a country that has repeatedly voiced their wish to annex Canada.
Nobody expects China to remotely disable J-35’s on a whim… But they might do it as they prepare to invade Taiwan.
It would be funny, but damn I would not want to buy military equipment from china
USA: We want to annex Canada. We are not joking
Canadians: Ooh China is very scary.
China is Canada’s second biggest trade partner, unless they’re planning to follow America to war with China, what’s the problem? Especially because it’s for a military that was designed for the singular purpose of defending itself from an American invasion over the last 70 years.
What’s the problem?? China has shown its intent in other parts of the world with its ‘belt and road’ initiative and, tbh, Canada has little incentive to join that. Never mind the fact that the scumbag Stephen Harper locked us into a decidedly one-sided, 31 year long FIPPA with China that can’t end until 2045.
Added to that is all the money laundering and fraud that China committed here beginning in the '90s.
Most Canadians are aware of this stuff, so are wary of joining forces with China in any way, shape or form.
China has shown its intent in other parts of the world with its ‘belt and road’ initiative
That intent being mutual development so other countries are less dependent on China’s enemy and their economies can’t be leveraged against China?
No. Their manipulation of poorer nations where China ‘lends’ them the money to complete projects that primarily benefit China, leaving the nations forever in China’s debt.
You’re just describing the IMF’s model and pretending China is doing it. When countries were unable to pay back the loans, China has refinanced or forgiven them.
Having good relations and a country that isn’t dependent on the west benefits China a lot more than slightly reduced costs to transport goods to a country, that every other country also reaps when a port or railroad is built.
There’s also the downgrades and quality control issues you get with buying Chinese.
The quality can’t be that much worse than the plane that can’t fly in the rain and has a risk of decapitating pilots on ejection. It’s not as good at killing American soldiers as the Osprey, but it’s not exactly the epitome of quality.
In any case, Chinese manufacturing builds to specification. The reason they’re perceived as low quality is that you’re buying goods designed to be literally as cheap as possible, both in the development and manufacturing costs, and companies wouldn’t make a profit outsourcing if they spent the same amount manufacturing the product in China.
When your cheap electronic fails because a .5 cent capacitor explodes after a month, it’s not because the country with the biggest manufacturing sector didn’t have access to 5 cent capacitors or the country with the most engineers didn’t have the engineering man-hours available to design it correctly.
I’m sure they weren’t planning on getting into a war againt USA either.
The Canadian public isint ready to swallow it yet but that’s where it’s going to end up at. China and Iran have been preparing for this scenario for the last 20+ years.
They have all the kit and more needed, and in the right quantity too. In time. People still don’t really belive Trump would push the button. The closer he gets the more open to this reality people will become.
It always seemed strange that Canada would agree (how much arm twisting?) to buy a plane that won’t work well in our Arctic. We are committed to buying 16 jets but it would probably be better to buy the rest elsewhere or put our money into homegrown solutions. Maybe drones or other machines.
Excuse me sir, may I interest you in Gripen? Cold weather tested, fascist free, and oh so stylish. Book your test flight today!
Maybe we should be looking at what we need for city close quarters defenses and guerilla fighting.
If they do plan on invading, it will probably involve them coming from the North as well, and not just the South-- especially if they were to occupy Greenland first.
Can I interest you in a Eurofighter Typhoon?
Tbf. The F35 owns the sky. The Typhoon wins in a dog fight, but the way the F35 operates it eliminates the threat long before the dog fight. I would love for a European fifth generation planejme the F35 tho’
Dogfights aren’t a thing anymore in modern aviation. There’s a reason it was barely considered in the procurement process that led to the F-35 acquisition. Sure hope other countries step up to the plate to build viable exportable alternatives to the F-35.
They said this before Vietnam and it was wrong. Ironically if truly stealth fighters with low radar and ir profiles were to engage each other in the air they would probably end up using guns primarily again as radar/ir guided missiles wouldn’t be reliable in this event.
Only if the F-35 is fully operational. $2 trillion later and the damn thing is still a maintenance pig.
Me personally? I’d love to say yes, but I’m a bit skint atm…could I get it on IOU?
Okay, make some space in the drive and I’ll bring it over later.
Messing with the military industrial complex is not the smartest move for Trump. All that will do is turn the military against him.
For the $70 billion it would apparently cost in total to have these super fancy fighter jets, they could instead build a million new low-cost housing units and still have some money left over to work on inventing innovative air defence systems that aren’t so expensive…
They could also build a high speed rail from Toronto to Quebec, something the people could actually use.
You’re underestimating the size of $70 billion. It’s more like high-speed rail to every major city in the country.
Nah, $70 billion is about right, and that’s a conservative estimate. If it turns out anything like california high speed rail then it could definitely go into $100 billion territory.
Common law countries like the u.s., Canada and u.k. are really inefficient at building hsr due to property rights issues. California is still struggling to build its hsr even though it’s scope has been reduced, its budget keeps ballooning. Similarly, the hs2 project in England to connect London to Manchester has also been cut back to just Birmingham, and it’s also over budget ringing in £ 50 billion for just that section.
If this were china then yeah you could probably get a Vancouver to Quebec line for $70 billion, but the Canadian central government isnt that strong and would have to deal with a lot more regulations.
6 months ago I would have agreed with you. Unfortunately now we have to focus on saving Canada.
He’s keeping up decorum but yeah these jets are done. You can’t buy military equipment from an enemy and the jets would have to be serviced in the USA over their lifetime.
Seems stupid to buy defense resources from a country that could become hostile. Do any European companies have anything to offer? I get that GOS and a lot of resources are still probably going to come from the USA but right now, the less the better.
It also seems stupid to keep importing on a mass scale the culture, news, entertainment, media, and media platforms of a country that wants to invade Canada. Yet here we are.
I mean to be fair this hostility is being perpetrated by one man and just in the past 2 months. Zero of those things would change in that short amount of time.
It began with one man then was instantly magnified by major news agencies (Fox, CNN) and by his millions of cultish sycophants who hang off his every word.
I would be thrilled if all American social media was blocked 100%. Sweep the trolls back into their caves.
I’d love that too.
The Swedish Saab Gripen would be a good choice. It would include assembly and maintenance in Canada.
I read somewhere they operate with a licensed American engine, and that some European nations are trying to replace it with a non-American one… Yeah, it’s a development of an F-18 engine.
F-35 is the most advanced aircraft currently available. We’ve also already sunk enough money into the program to pay for the first 16 IIRC. This puts us in an awkward position, considering the possibility of degraded functionality of the F-35 without US assistance1.
One of the worst ways to balloon military spending without getting anything in return is to keep changing your mind and hanging procurement up in endless indecision. Combined with the money already spent, I think we have to stick with F-35 for at least a bit.
I like the Gripen, and I’d suggest a switching some of our 88 fighters to Gripen’s, but apparently Gripen’s aren’t that much cheaper.
Long term though, I think Canada should get in on GCAP, the Global Combat Air Program. It’s not expected to deliver until 2035 if everything sticks to plan, so we’d still need the F-35 or Gripens I was mentioning in the interim.
1 My understanding is that the “kill-switch” myth is pretty much that, a myth. There are software systems that depend on the US, apparently ALIS/ODIN, plus the MDF file updates. The possibility of a kill-switch can’t be totally excluded IMO though, there is a lot of software in the F-35, and the US writes and patches it all. Even if there isn’t a kill-switch, the US knows what vulnerabilities they are patching, and if any of them where exploitable, I’d imagine they’d know.
The key thing you’re missing here is that the programming of the ECM pod, the thing that makes the F-35 able to do what it does, the thing it’s just an average 6th gen fighter without, is only done by US personnel.
Even if you could make the entire plane locally, parts wise, the US will not ever give out the pod code. Ever.
Because without it, the plane is worth less than nothing, it’s a liability.
F-35 is the most advanced aircraft currently available
As long as you can service and maintain them. Without a reliable supply chain for parts and servicing, they’re just expensive decorations.
Absolutely. This is the true “kill switch”. Turning off support for most US made weapons means killing them.
As I’ve said elsewhere the ECM pod updates can only be done by US staff. Without this week’s pod frequencies to hit the latest radar frequencies, the plane is a liability in the air because of it’s cost.
There is no way the US is going to code “enemy” planes’ ECM.
The F-35 program may well flatline from this upset.
Uncle Sam keeps his ECM frequencies under a pretty tight lock and key, speaking as someone who’s had to service ALQ-99 pods.
F-35 is the most advanced aircraft currently available
in west, but it may also be too advanced as root cause of its reliability and maintenance cost problems.
sunk enough money into the program to pay for the first 16
should demand refund for those 16.
apparently Gripen’s aren’t that much cheaper.
$85m vs $109m is a fair bit cheaper. Again, the maintenance costs and flight readiness metrics matter significantly.
There are software systems that depend on the US, apparently ALIS/ODIN, plus the MDF file updates.
We don’t need to focus on whether there is a “mid air kill switch or not”, when we know there is a “make this a paper weight switch”. Naive or disingenuous of you to say “if Lockheed finds a kill switch, they would surely patch it out”
Saab is offering to move part of the production to Canada, Trump might prevent US defense contractors from having facilities outside the US… So… Yeah
This is one of the reasons I really liked the Saab offer. Supporting a domestic aerospace defence industry is probably a good strategic aim.
GCAP would also offer a chance to foster our domestic aerospace industry.
There are other combinations that achieve much the same though. FCAS (Future Combat Air System) is similar to GCAP, a joint France, Germany and Spain project, but it isn’t scheduled to deliver until 2040.
I am in no position to know what’s “best”, but it’s undeniable that there are some good options. It’s unfortunate though that there will be a cost to pay that we went with F-35 all those years ago. Still don’t have a Canadian F-35 in the air.
Another piece of trivia, that I really don’t know if significant is that Sweden nearly joined GCAP. If we went with Gripen and GCAP, and Sweden rejoined GCAP there might be opportunities for long term partnerships. Then again I think there are similar opportunities with Eurofighter and FCAS.
Also, even without any malicious back doors it is still likely far easier to attack the software and electronic vulnerabilities of the aircraft as you said.
Lockheed Martin — ”We specialize in destroying the lives of brown people, come fly with us”
maybe don’t rely on fighter jets than can possibly be disabled remotely by someone talking about invading you
There was the “kill switch” rumour recently that trump (any president) can remotely disable any/all f35s they wanted to
It’s probably not true, but the truth is just as disasterous for foreign buyers.
A shutdown of parts out of US does essentially the same and is much easier to do on a whim and withhold the solution in negotiations.
People weren’t just buying US because “we’re the best” it’s because we could be relied on for support, because no one fucksnwith the US military industrial complex
trump is tho, and that’s a hell of a lot more dangerous for a politician than pissing off day traders
They require maintenance in the US. How well would that work if the US was invading us?
They don’t give any access to the stealth tech either, as far as I understand
I doubt that’s true, no one would place orders for a stealth fighter without the stealth technology.
No you get stealth, but you don’t get to know ‘how stelt’
…
Yes, that is the point I am making, and the argument your government is making for canceling the contract.
If trump were to cut off logistical support for that or any other whim, they would have to be mothballed.
The SAAB would be much better as they allow local parts manufacture and local maintenance.
Heck yeah. Go Carney.
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