No stupid questions time: This kind of lurks in the back of my mind and I sometimes find myself hesitating to use the term “female” to refer to female figures in any context. I don’t have to do that, right? Like, would “woman lawyer” be better than “female lawyer” in contexts where specifying gender might be relevant? I would conversely prefer the term “male lawyer” in the same context and “man lawyer” sounds just as odd to me as “woman lawyer”. Am I overthinking this?
They’re just called lawyers, unless they’re lawyering with their genitals and their sex is somehow relevant.
“70% of lawyers suffer discrimination in the workplace but only 30% of lawyers face discrimination.”
There are obviously still contacts where the distinction is important.
Such as discussing discrimination, statistics, etc
Maybe from an equity perspective, but not from a lawyer perspective. So you’d probably say “we need more women in law”.
Because the topic is women. If the topic was lawyering, then sex won’t come up.
Immediate scenario that came to mind here is
The client demanded any other public defender, as long as they weren’t black or female.
“single female lawyer fighting for justice and also being single,”
That’s a deep reference. Very nice.
I’m a nostalgia sniper today
My personal take is to just use lawyer, when gender is irrelevant. This may get your audience confused when using “she” in the next sentence. But it could help weaken the stereotypes about genders if we did this more often IMHO.
If needed “female lawyer” or “lawyer who is a woman” are good otherwise.I know, use the worst of all options, “lawyeress.” /s
Waiter = Waitress
Lawyer = LawyressLawyer femoid 😒
lawyeoid 😏When we’re driving, my wife often acts as a navigatrix
I work in statistics and we never use girl of woman, only female. The line is vastly different in age and meaning depending on culture, religion, law, or heritage. Even in western societ, 13, 16, 18, and 21 are all valid before tipping to 40, 50, 60, 65, 68, and 70 where the term can be prefixed with some form of adjective.
It’s old-fashioned. Just say female and every culture/society understands you without confusion or insult. Save you embarassing/insulting people while travelling too.
Best be safe and call them “girl lawyer”
Sorry but “woman” is not an adjective and its use that way is grating. You wouldn’t say “man teacher” and it sounds wrong. So does “woman lawyer” or “woman voter.”
The neckbeard/incel thing is using “female” when “woman” would be acceptable and more common, like “look at these females” or something. It doesn’t mean we have to abolish the word “female” entirely from the lexicon.
Yeah, that seems to align nicely with the instincts I outlined in my comment. No need to apologize. Thanks!
Yes you’re over thinking this. A woman lawyer is just a lawyer. Same how a male lawyer is just a lawyer. Unless the gender of the person is important, leave it out of their job title. Use the word actor to describe both men and women who act. Flight attendant for men and women, or receptionist, or any other word. The vast majority of time you can leave their gender out of the description and it’s fine.
My personal rule is female adjective is okay, female noun is not.
From what I googled, it’s especially bad when you pair “man” and “female” together, which makes sense to me.
Just don’t use male or female as nouns to refer to humans. That simple. If you’re talking about animals it doesn’t matter.
If you’re talking about animals it doesn’t matter.
Not even that it doesn’t matter, it’s almost entirely the point. The reason why using ‘females’ as a noun to refer to women is dehumanizing is because it’s a noun we use for animals.
“Men and females.”
Yes that’s the issue, if you use them inconsistently. Males, females. Men, women. Same for boys, girls actually. Saying boys and women or men and girls can seem belittling to the other.
I consistently used males and females in some contexts but I’ve noticed that it often still comes across as weird when talking about humanoids.
Gotta love how “”””radfems”””” love the term “adult human female” too.
Trans women are adult human females.
True. It’s just a slogan in the same way that “being White is all right” is or “All Lives Matter” is. It’s not supposed to mean what it means. It’s a code.
Like - once, 4chan (/pol/ and /b/ primarily, early mid 2010s) that it would be funny to make drinking milk a racist thing. It was explicitly discussed how this would make people upset about people drinking milk, and how this would be funny. The alt right weirdos in on the joke get the joke, leftists are befuddled and outraged, the stupid conservative weirdos are laughing at the dumb liberals and their cancel culture getting worked up about milk. Same thing with that pinched thumb and index finger “okay” symbol. 14 and 88 have lost their plausible deniability in most spaces at least.
Very similarly, the idea of MAPS was a /pol/ operation that was carried out to delegitimize the LGBT movement. The idea of people identifying with a sexual orientation based on being exclusively attracted to children, to the point of creating a pride flag, was mostly a /pol/ op. This is not to say that there aren’t creeps who did actually identify as such as a consequence of this movement, but it wasn’t a natural movement of creeps.
Language games. The limits of my language are the limits of my world. The means something entirely different even in just human there.
Obviously the exclusionary group is going to exclude the people they don’t like with their slogans though. Trans exclusionary radical feminists don’t believe trans women are women. The “adult human female” shit across from them “defining woman” or something to that effect.
I know, but I used to really piss off transphobes with that line. At least one immediately quote retweeted me, while calling me out as an “extreme misogynist” (she was defending Matt Walsh of all people, saying he’s just practicing his “right to religion”) just before blocking me.
Funny how trans people never have religious rights in these discussions. Or how they refer to “trans ideology” rather than trans religious or philosophical beliefs. If I were to opine on my beliefs of the soul/spirit, I would say I was created with a female spirit in a male body. If I have any religious belief, then it is a religious worldview where such a thing is possible. Yet trans people never seem to have their religious rights acknowledged.
“You let them wear clothes?”
Very similar to those who refer to women as “uterus-havers”. Pretty much the same.
No matter what you say there will be complaints.
Can we stop with this for once?
Men are male, women are female. These words are interchangeable, and whoever decided one should be somehow bad or derogatory is deranged. Claim the words for what they are. Use “male” and “female” in appropriate context.
Sorry mate, not how language works. Men is a noun, male is usually an adjective, they aren’t interchangeable. Depending on the context, it can be weird/wrong to call groups of people by an adjective (exp. illegals, poors, disableds). Hearing men call women “females” sounds weird af dude, you’re proving OP’s point.
Why?
One can call a group of men “males”, and no one bats an eye. But once anyone uses “female” to refer to a woman, it’s a shitshow.
What if it’s “the perp is a 5’4” female heading west"?
No one does that
Can’t help but notice you’re complaining about the post but never did what the post is complaining about.
Not here in particular, but I have been called out several times for using the word “female” in an appropriate and normal context.
As a noun to refer to humans?
Even as an adjective in scientific context.
How often has that happened to you?
At least three times that I can recall
Both male and female are supposed to be used as an adjective. For example “male model” and "female model’.
The problem is using female(s) as a noun. For example “I met 5 females in class today” which is just as weird as “I met 5 males in class today”.
This meme is almost certainly a criticism of the latter and as you much more concisely put it “Use “male” and “female” in its appropriate context”.
The reason this meme is phrased like this is because many incel groups use “female(s)” as a noun in a deliberately derogatory manor and people don’t do that for men.
Also clarifying the point like this would make the meme less snappy. Though I think they could put “as a noun” at the end
People do use them as nouns. For example, in statistical/scientific context: “Among males/females…”, or “I’m a male”
And I certainly saw the word “males” being commonly used, which is pretty much why I’m so baffled by the need to banish its counterpart.
Incels may call women whatever, but actively banishing the word because it was appropriated by some group of weirdos isn’t gonna help - rather, it will only deepen the flawed interpretation of a very regular and normal word, assigning context to where there was none.
I’m a proud male. Why can’t there be a proud female? This only means she is a woman, after all.
The language of scientific literature is not the same as the language of everyday use. There’s a reason grad programs have entire courses dedicated to scientific communication.
I am a grad student, and I often wish we wouldn’t make too much distinction. It’s just creating problems out of thin air.
I do wonder what you’re proud of exactly, when you’re proud to be male. Proud of the genitals you were assigned at birth?
Nope, not proud as in “yay I’m so happy to be male”. Proud as in “I’m a male and there’s nothing bad about it or the wording around it, I’m happy to be who I am without shitting on anyone being different”
I refer to them as laaaaydeeeees
Women and girl have a different interpretation in AI, at least in diffusion. Boy does as well.
I still think in terms of dudes/girls and I really don’t care for the words men or women. Those are ugly old words I don’t want to be a part of. If someone takes issue with the word girls as a catch all term, females is the f-off anti retirement crew assimilation alternative
Honest question from a non native: what is wrong with the term female?
And what word could you use for the sex girls and women are part of where people wouldn’t imagine you look like a space neolib?
Non-native as well but for me, “female” is an adjective and only used as a noun in technical setting. If used in regular conversation setting, it’s condescending and dehumanizing.
Good:
- There are fifteen females in the survey.
- The female is more aggressive, typical of hyenas.
- You bought the wrong USB cable, this one is a female.
Bad:
- This female is not very good at her job.
- You females need to tone it down.
Female is still an acceptable term in some context: eg, when referring to the social group on a societal level, female can be fine, also for identifying someone’s genetic/biological sex as “female” for medical/official contexts, that’s still okay in most cases.
Where it’s not okay is to use it on an individual level or to refer to a small group of ladies. The term is seem as cold, clinical, and in some cases, dehumanizing. It comes off as boiling down a person to their function in reproduction and nothing more. “You are the female and you carry children.” Kind of thing. Like women are some kind of bakery for your crotch goblins, and not people worthy of respect.
But something like “the female population of the country” is fairly okay, since you’re referring to the entirely of the people who identify as female, not an individual or small group of individuals.
At least, that’s my take. I’m just some guy. If any women want to correct me, I defer to your judgement and opinion, and happily retract any contradictory statements I may have made. I am always happy to be corrected.
Okay I understand.
So “books with female protagonists” would be okay (because large group referenced) “Bus with female passengers” would be considered rude, because small group referenced, you would rather say “Bus with women and girls as passengers” ?
Short answer: It’s a turn of phrase the Incel movement popularized as a dehumanizing dogwhistle.
Long answer: In current American English, “Female” and “Females” are highly formal terms and really are only commonly used in situations like law and academic discourse (this is true of “male” and “males” as well, though there’s much less cultural baggage associated with those terms). People who use them in casual conversation instead of the much more common “Women” (or the diminutive, “Girls”) tend to be the kind of person that uses formal language to emphasize their own intellectual superiority over the common masses, and in particular all the women who won’t have sex with them. In fact and almost invariably, this is presented in the form of explanations about why nobody wants to have sex with them, and the cultural forces that are causing it, and why deep down it’s the women’s fault they can’t get a date, and it just all goes downhill from there.
edit: clarity
I’ll be real here: no one irl cares, we’re so careless with our language people understand what you mean more by vibes than vocabulary. I’ve not heard a single person take umbrage with female outside of the internet.
You’re just encouraging me to refer to women as “females” with this.
I was once explaining to someone how a group of my family is part of a “religion” which is really a cult. I was saying how females (being inclusive of the adult women and young girls) in this cult have no body autonomy and how fucked up it is. I was interrupted to be informed that the term female should not be used. They interrupted my explanation of how my fucking family member is being forced to get pregnant over and over, how the girls are being treated like property or pets, because correcting my use of the word female was more important. I will never forget or forgive this moment. I hope this anecdote highlights priorities for everyone that has such a strong opinion about this. Also, I imagine if I wasn’t male, this would have been a nonissue. I don’t know about anyone else, but I actually do want equality. Double standards are outdated.
I will never forget or forgive this moment.
(emphasis mine) Moments where someone’s heart was in the right place are the most forgivable for me
If I could choose my reaction it mighttttttt be akin to….
“LOL did you just knee jerk reaction b/c ‘female’ is word of the week on fascist social media? Well thanks for caring but this will derail us for a thirty-second language & comprehension lesson…”
Context is important. In your case, you’re using female to designate a biological characteristic - aka, a reproductive ability that the cult is specifically exploiting. Some men, especially online, use “female” in a way where normally someone would use the term “woman”, in an attempt to dehumanize women. It’s unfortunate that the person you were talking to couldn’t tell the difference, but as for never forgiving them, maybe a gentle correction could be more warranted?
“Hey, bigots say this and it makes people sound like bigots when they say it”
“I used that word correctly and was told that it made me sound like a bigot. Maybe think about that?”
Cool, maybe get mad at the bigots who ruined the word for people rather than the people saying the word was ruined by bigots.
It’s like when people get mad at the r-slur being a slur now. Like, no, it was always intended as an insult based on medical language. It was always going to become a slur.
Now people are using the word female to both alienate and other women in their language and to “sound smarter” when showing bigotry. Also, you were probably told to not say it because they knew you were better than the assholes who say it in a demeaning way. Maybe… think about that?
How about we just stop letting bigots have every fucking word and don’t assume negative qualities about people from an insignificant distinction, cultures are different and just assuming someone is a bigot because they used the word female in a proper context is absolutely idiotic and counter productive to actually fighting real bigotry
Never assumed this person was a bigot. The point being made is that “female” is now a dog whistle word for the alt-right. Dog whistles by themselves aren’t proof that someone is a bigot, but they are still words associated with bigotry.
You can’t control what words become dog-whistles (Jean-Paul Sartre quote “But they(anti-semites) are amusing themselves, for it is their adversary who is obliged to use words responsibly, since he believes in words”) but you can acknowledge that they ARE dog whistles without it being some moral failing to point it out.
I am talking more generally, not just you in this instance.
We shouldn’t keep seeding ground to fascists over which words are “theirs” a simple and inconsequential example is Pepe the frog, there is nothing inherently racist about it and there are hordes of wholesome pepe memes, but someone decided that because it also gets coopted by fascists and racists that now pepe is actually a symbol for racism.
This is idiotic that we are HANDING bad actors the right to own words and ideas by self policing.
I don’t disagree, but I don’t see how you can do that. Well, I kind of do, that’s by “taking the word back”, poisoning the meaning of the word or its association so that hateful people won’t want to be associated with it. I know it’s definitely not shaming people for calling out that it’s a dog whistle. Because, again, that puts the moral failing on the person calling it out rather than the people who gave it the negative association to begin with.
That quickly becomes “ugh, these fucking SJWs policing everyone’s speech” instead of “ugh, these fucking losers ruining perfectly good words with their hatred”, which it should be.
I agree there isn’t an easy answer, I just don’t think giving them power over the words is actually helping anyone, because it does turn into the SJW situation like you pointed out.
Humungus Wut intensifies
It devolved into people MAKING problems were there wasn’t actually one by assuming negative intent.
Cool, maybe get mad at the bigots who ruined the word for people rather than the people saying the word was ruined by bigots.
A scorpion wants to cross a river but cannot swim, so it asks a frog to carry it across. The frog hesitates, afraid that the scorpion might sting it, but the scorpion promises not to, pointing out that it would drown if it killed the frog in the middle of the river. The frog considers this argument sensible and agrees to transport the scorpion. Midway across the river, the scorpion stings the frog anyway, dooming them both. The dying frog asks the scorpion why it stung despite knowing the consequence, to which the scorpion replies: “I am sorry, but I couldn’t help myself. It’s my character.”
good luck getting the bigots to change.
Who said anything about getting them to change? Getting mad at people because the word changed instead of getting mad at the people who changed the word is my point. There’s a reason why that word was targeted as a dog whistle, but it is still a dog whistle now and acknowledging that it is isn’t some moral wrong.
Why do you post my appearance like that? Honestly, it’s derogatory to relate my kind of people with the assholes.
