Okay they’re being stupid about it (Trump is a liberal? C’mon) but they’re right. The ends do justify the means in this case, because Americans have repeatedly failed to get to these ends via any other means. If America won’t stop being imperialist, I’ll settle for them being incompetently imperialist thank you. I mean don’t get me wrong the best scenario is still for an anti-imperialist government to take power in America, but that doesn’t seem awfully likely.
The weird thing is you could probably describe the Republican party as liberal for most of their existence but not anymore certainly. Certainly not the last 10 years. Trump’s what killed that.
I feel like people are forgetting fascist countries become problems for every country.
They’re also forgetting whatever solidifies under trump will outlast him, so whatever grace the world thinks they have with Trump’s “incompetence” will soon be replaced by competence. Doesn’t matter if they can trick Americans into liking them, voting won’t be a thing. World domination is one hundred percent the goal. Look at how much they’re already influencing European fascist parties.
Who? As far as I know the only things Trump has done that appreciably hurt non-Americans and aren’t American business as usual (so other than funding Israel and bombing Yemen) are cutting aid for Ukraine and tariffs, neither of which are imperialist actions (even if the former is vile and the latter is just fucking stupid).
Who? As far as I know the only things Trump has done that appreciably hurt non-Americans and aren’t American business as usual
Abolishing USAID, destroying long-standing defensive alliances with democratic countries, revoking funding for numerous scientific studies and projects (including medical and climate change projects which would have resulted in worldwide harm reduction from serious ongoing issues), starting a new arms race wherein not only have numerous countries signaled a desire to increase defense spending but also a widespread desire to acquire nuclear arms now that open imperialism is back in vogue, support for Israeli attacks in the West Bank (a line even the fucking Bush admin wouldn’t cross), support of far-right parties and cultural movements in other countries (including fascists like the recently chastised Le Pen)…
And we’re not even a third of the way through the first fucking year of this administration.
are cutting aid for Ukraine and tariffs, neither of which are imperialist actions (even if the former is vile and the latter is just fucking stupid).
Fucking what? How the fuck is attempting to use economic power to extract concessions from smaller countries not imperialist? For that matter, how is attempting to assist the takeover of a sovereign country by an imperialist power in the name of some fuckwadded power politics interpretation of international affairs not imperialist?
We’re sitting here with a projected death toll in the literal millions (yes, millions of non-Americans, as lowly American civilians don’t matter) three fucking months into this administration, with further immediate and serious threats to multiple countries.
Maybe killing the American Empire through fucking fascism will not result in an ideal outcome for the world?
Abolishing USAID, destroying long-standing defensive alliances with democratic countries, revoking funding for numerous scientific studies and projects (including medical and climate change projects which would have resulted in worldwide harm reduction from serious ongoing issues), starting a new arms race wherein not only have numerous countries signaled a desire to increase defense spending but also a widespread desire to acquire nuclear arms now that open imperialism is back in vogue, support for Israeli attacks in the West Bank (a line even the fucking Bush admin wouldn’t cross), support of far-right parties and cultural movements in other countries (including fascists like the recently chastised Le Pen)…
Okay that’s fair. I still don’t see any imperialist actions (words don’t count) here.
Fucking what? How the fuck is attempting to use economic power to extract concessions from smaller countries not imperialist?
Okay fair enough again. It doesn’t seem to be all that effective, but it is imperialist.
For that matter, how is attempting to assist the takeover of a sovereign country by an imperialist power in the name of some fuckwadded power politics interpretation of international affairs not imperialist?
I mean Trump’s support for the far right in the democratic West is shaping up to be more of a hindrance than a benefit so with that view it’s a win for anti-imperialism if anything.
We’re sitting here with a projected death toll in the literal millions (yes, millions of non-Americans, as lowly American civilians don’t matter) three fucking months into this administration, with further immediate and serious threats to multiple countries.
So about the same as the war on terror then. Or, adjusted for population, the Vietnam war. I haven’t looked at American intervention in South Africa, but it’s probably similar. Also that massive death toll is mostly American aid being pulled so it shouldn’t increase much until he starts a war somewhere. You also now have Israel (AKA America’s unsinkable aircraft carrier) trying to restart the goddamn Syrian civil war. I don’t disagree that fascism in America will do great amounts of harm to a lot of people, but you seem to be underestimating just how much harm America does already.
Maybe killing the American Empire through fucking fascism will not result in an ideal outcome for the world?
I mean yeah obviously. I said as much myself, but given how modern America seems intent on killing a few millions or so people every decade and otherwise oppressing tens or hundreds of millions, and how Americans don’t seem to give enough of a shit to do anything about that when it’s their team doing it… eh, worse trades have been made.
Okay that’s fair. I still don’t see any imperialist actions (words don’t count) here.
Funding doesn’t count either, I guess imperialism is only when you bomb someone, and the more you bomb someone the more imperialist it is.
I mean Trump’s support for the far right in the democratic West is shaping up to be more of a hindrance than a benefit so with that view it’s a win for anti-imperialism if anything.
… this the same democratic West which is having unprecedented levels of support for far-right parties?
So about the same as the war on terror then. Or, adjusted for population, the Vietnam war.
Yes, we’re looking at a projected death toll, just from the starting three months of fascist fuckwit policies, as some of the longest and most impactful conflicts of the post-WW2 US. One with a particularly sharp eye might note that that is a very bad start to what is likely going to be a very long regime.
I haven’t looked at American intervention in South Africa, but it’s probably similar.
… what.
Also that massive death toll is mostly American aid being pulled so it shouldn’t increase much until he starts a war somewhere. You also now have Israel (AKA America’s unsinkable aircraft carrier) trying to restart the goddamn Syrian civil war.
Does that not count as a war? Or the aforementioned support for Israel expanding their current phase of the genocide to the West Bank? Or the support for Israeli strikes against Lebanon and continued occupation?
Israel isn’t the US’s unsinkable aircraft carrier, because Israel is only cooperative insofar as it helps Israeli aims. Israel is a kingmaker for domestic US politics ever since the evangelicals got involved as a major force, and they’ve decided to put their weight behind a fascist king which will support them as they continue to murder US citizens and journalists and sell US military secrets to whoever the fuck they feel like it.
I don’t disagree that fascism in America will do great amounts of harm to a lot of people, but you seem to be underestimating just how much harm America does already.
No, I’m really not. You’re underestimating just how much harm the US will continue to do under a fascist regime. You’re cheering for the US’s international position to revert to what it was pre-WW2. Unfortunately for literally everyone, the US was still immensely imperialist before it had robust ties with other democratic states.
What you’re cheering for is not “The US will do fewer horrible things!”, it’s “The US will continue to do horrible things, but what good we do will now be cancelled.” Subsidizing the defence of democratic European states? Already fucking canceled. Supporting free journalism? Already cancelled. Humanitarian aid to literal millions of people? Already cancelled. Mutual economic agreements? Already cancelled. Contributions to technologies with applications for the public good? Already cancelled. And this is just the fucking start of it.
But if you think “Europe no longer likes us :(” will stop a fascist regime from bombing Iran or Syria or the Ivory Coast or fucking Peru, you’ve got another thing coming.
Funding doesn’t count either, I guess imperialism is only when you bomb someone, and the more you bomb someone the more imperialist it is.
No, funding absolutely does, but your list didn’t include funding anything.
… this the same democratic West which is having unprecedented levels of support for far-right parties?
Yes, exactly that democratic West. Trump is a hindrance for the European far-right, not a boon.
Yes, we’re looking at a projected death toll, just from the starting three months of fascist fuckwit policies, as some of the longest and most impactful conflicts of the post-WW2 US. One with a particularly sharp eye might note that that is a very bad start to what is likely going to be a very long regime.
Again, that massive death toll is mostly American aid being pulled so it shouldn’t increase much until he starts a war somewhere.
Does that not count as a war? Or the aforementioned support for Israel expanding their current phase of the genocide to the West Bank? Or the support for Israeli strikes against Lebanon and continued occupation?
Yes, this is exactly the business as usual that America losing clout with the NATO-aligned West is going to reduce. Israel can only act with impunity because Europe won’t challenge it, again because of American influence (otherwise Europe has literally nothing to gain out of supporting Israel). Remember that Israel’s largest trading partner is the EU, not America.
Israel is a kingmaker for domestic US politics ever since the evangelicals got involved as a major force, and they’ve decided to put their weight behind a fascist king which will support them as they continue to murder US citizens and journalists and sell US military secrets to whoever the fuck they feel like it.
As opposed to all other US administrations since Reagan who have materially opposed or punished Israel for murdering US citizens and journalists or selling US military secrets to whoever the fuck they feel like it? Again, this is business as usual.
Unfortunately for literally everyone, the US was still immensely imperialist before it had robust ties with other democratic states.
Yes, but its imperialism in terms of area and impact exploded during and after the cold war.
But if you think “Europe no longer likes us :(” will stop a fascist regime from bombing Iran or Syria or the Ivory Coast or fucking Peru, you’ve got another thing coming.
“Europe no longer likes us :(” won’t stop them, but European sanctions might.
No, funding absolutely does, but your list didn’t include funding anything.
Abolishing USAID (funding), destroying long-standing defensive alliances with democratic countries (funding), revoking funding for numerous scientific studies and projects (including medical and climate change projects which would have resulted in worldwide harm reduction from serious ongoing issues) (explicitly funding), starting a new arms race wherein not only have numerous countries signaled a desire to increase defense spending but also a widespread desire to acquire nuclear arms now that open imperialism is back in vogue (causing by revocation of funding), support for Israeli attacks in the West Bank (a line even the fucking Bush admin wouldn’t cross) (funding), support of far-right parties and cultural movements in other countries (including fascists like the recently chastised Le Pen) (funding)…
You uh
you sure about that
Yes, exactly that democratic West. Trump is a hindrance for the European far-right, not a boon.
That seems an extremely curious conclusion to reach considering the surge in support for the far-right since the start of this year. One might even suspect it of being motivated reasoning.
Again, that massive death toll is mostly American aid being pulled so it shouldn’t increase much until he starts a war somewhere.
… do you think that the death toll won’t increase until he starts a war?
It’ll increase with whatever the next fascist fuckwit policy is, and the administration is far from finished. Like holy shit, c’mon. Three months is not the end of the fucking race. We have, at minimum, another 45 fucking months of new and exciting fascist policies which will kill people.
Yes, this is exactly the business as usual that America losing clout with the NATO-aligned West is going to reduce.
Jesus fucking Christ.
Israel can only act with impunity because Europe won’t challenge it,
Oh yes, as we all know, there are no other genocidal hypermilitarized states in the world that Europe doesn’t challenge. Europe, happily, is out there playing world police for any state that isn’t protected by the US.
again because of American influence (otherwise Europe has literally nothing to gain out of supporting Israel).
Europe also has nothing to gain out of supporting Russia, yet there remains significant demographics which are full-throated in their support for Russia.
Maybe reducing everything to materialist analysis is incredibly fucking blinkered?
Remember that Israel’s largest trading partner is the EU, not America.
“Europe no longer likes us :(” won’t stop them, but European sanctions might.
Okay? So is Europe willing to hurt itself economically to punish Israel and the US? Europe’s morals are, of course, super strong; that’s why we go for an idealist analysis for Europe but a materialist analysis for everywhere else in the world? I’m sure European countries aren’t struggling with far-right agitation on both cultural and economic grounds.
Yes, but its imperialism in terms of area and impact exploded during and after the cold war.
“and after the Cold War”
are you fucking stupid.
As opposed to all other US administrations since Reagan who have materially opposed or punished Israel for murdering US citizens and journalists or selling US military secrets to whoever the fuck they feel like it? Again, this is business as usual.
I love that I can demonstrate the Trump regime going above and beyond on Israel and your response is still a “It’s business as usual!”
Whatever, man. If you’re so fucking desperate to critically deepthroat fascism in the hopes that the American Empire will be the pure evil regime you so desire it to be (obviously, no one would side with a powerful and self-interested genocidal regime, like China or Russia or the Saudis, so when it happens to the US, everything will finally be okay in world politics 😊), far be it from me to stop you.
Yes? Your list included cutting funding, but I’m not seeing anyone being funded here other than Israel (business as usual). Well you also mention the European far-right, but while I don’t know much about their relationship with MAGA other than that it exists I doubt National Rally or AfD are getting American tax money.
That seems an extremely curious conclusion to reach considering the surge in support for the far-right since the start of this year. One might even suspect it of being motivated reasoning.
Huh? What surge? I could be missing something, but I’ve only heard of European far-right parties trying to distance themselves from Trump and the Trump rampage losing Canada’s Conservatives a near-guaranteed majority.
It’ll increase with whatever the next fascist fuckwit policy is, and the administration is far from finished. Like holy shit, c’mon. Three months is not the end of the fucking race. We have, at minimum, another 45 fucking months of new and exciting fascist policies which will kill people.
Yeah probably, but how is he going to kill more on-Americans than he already did and is by cutting foreign aid? There’s only so much you can do to kill people outside your country without going to war.
Oh yes, as we all know, there are no other genocidal hypermilitarized states in the world that Europe doesn’t challenge. Europe, happily, is out there playing world police for any state that isn’t protected by the US.
I can’t think of any genocidal hypermilitarized state that Europe isn’t at odds with other than Israel. However, even if there was, the Middle East is Europe’s backyard and would be their sphere of influence if it wasn’t already claimed by America, so they want it to be stable because when it’s not stable refugees flood Europe. Well, more accurately Europe feels like it’s being flooded with immigrants but that’s neither here nor there.
“and after the Cold War”
are you fucking stupid.
Something something war on terror.
I love that I can demonstrate the Trump regime going above and beyond on Israel and your response is still a “It’s business as usual!”
He goes above and beyond on Israel rhetoric, and frankly neither I nor anybody else give a shit about what the US government has to say about Israel. Call me when he actually does something more than what Biden already did.
(obviously, no one would side with a powerful and self-interested genocidal regime, like China or Russia or the Saudis, so when it happens to the US, everything will finally be okay in world politics 😊), far be it from me to stop you.
I mean, plenty of people would side with a powerful and self-interested genocidal regime, but fortunately Trump has made it a point to actively antagonize his closest and most powerful allies so there’s not much reason to worry about that possibility. No ally Trump can possibly make would make up for the hole left by Europe and Canada.
To be fair , we’re only at the first phase of fascist takeover. Eventually they’ll look outwards as they’ve already started signalling with Canada, Panama and Greenland.
That’s true in the short term (or maybe not; they have enough internal “enemies” to last them for years), but in the medium to long term their ability to project power will be too degraded for them to amount to much on the world stage. Absolutely sucks for Canada and Greenland, but given the amount of evil America supports worldwide from their position as hegemonic superpower it’s likely still a reduction in overall imperialism in the world.
I don’t think so. Given how spineless modern Europe in general is they’ll probably not fight the US over Greenland. I could see Europe supporting Canada like they are Ukraine in the case of a US-Canada war, but that’s about it.
That depends whether what rises from the ashes is better or worse for the entire planet.
I don’t know whether it’ll be better or worse, but either way it’ll be weaker. Assuming Trump has his way, it’ll be a long time—if ever—before America can throw its way around the world like it does today. The web of alliances (read: army of accomplices) it uses to bully the Global South into submission is irreparably broken.
I don’t know whether it’ll be better or worse, but either way it’ll be weaker. Assuming Trump has his way, it’ll be a long time—if ever—before America can throw its way around the world like it does today.
Holy shit.
You wanna fucking remind me what significantly weaker imperialist countries like Russia do around the world?
The USA’s vast diplomatic power is the least fucking objectionable thing about our foreign policy, and that’s what’s being dismantled. You think the fucking massive intelligence apparatus and the world’s largest military is going to fucking vanish into thin air? Our most horrific imperialist actions have been done unilaterally, or near-unilaterally. We didn’t need fucking Poland to help us invade Iraq. We didn’t need the Aussies to help us bomb Vietnam. You think the US becoming a pariah state is going to help further US policy on that front?
Fucking insanity.
The web of alliances (read: army of accomplices) it uses to bully the Global South into submission is irreparably broken.
ou wanna fucking remind me what significantly weaker imperialist countries like Russia do around the world?
What’s Russian imperialism’s death toll in the last two decades? How many people live under Russian-supported dictatorships? How many genocides has Russia funded? As shown by Russia, significantly weaker imperialist powers cause significantly less harm, just as I said.
The USA’s vast diplomatic power is the least fucking objectionable thing about our foreign policy, and that’s what’s being dismantled.
The US’s vast diplomatic and economic power helps gain global buy-in and coerce support for those objectionable things about your foreign policy.
You think the fucking massive intelligence apparatus and the world’s largest military is going to fucking vanish into thin air? Our most horrific imperialist actions have been done unilaterally, or near-unilaterally. We didn’t need fucking Poland to help us invade Iraq. We didn’t need the Aussies to help us bomb Vietnam.
They’d have been a lot less unilateral if Europe had raised a stink about yet another refugee crisis happening in their backyard. The diplomatic power you’re talking about is exactly why America can trash the world and nobody that matters says a damn thing about it.
What’s Russian imperialism’s death toll in the last two decades?
Literal millions. Holy fucking shit, do you not remember the Chechnyan wars? Syria? The war in fucking Ukraine?
How many people live under Russian-supported dictatorships?
Sudan, Syria until a few months ago, the Donbass, Belarus, Venezuela, CAR, Mali, Burkino Faso, parts of Chad…
How many genocides has Russia funded?
Let’s see, we’ve got Sudan, Syria, and Ukraine. So that’s three at minimum.
How many has the US funded in the past 30 years? Israel’s?
As shown by Russia, significantly weaker imperialist powers cause significantly less harm, just as I said.
“An imperialist country a third of the size and much poorer does less harm than an imperialist country three times its size and significantly wealthier”
Wow, very insightful.
The US’s vast diplomatic and economic power helps gain global buy-in and coerce support for those objectionable things about your foreign policy.
Yes, of course, that’s why we roped in Europe to support our invasion of Iraq.
They’d have been a lot less unilateral if Europe had raised a stink about yet another refugee crisis happening in their backyard.
… really?
You fucking think that in the post-9/11 fury we would have given two shits if Europe (checks notes) objected slightly louder than they already did? And now you’re looking at a fascist regime which explicitly opposes outside economic influence and saying “Wow! Now those other democratic states will have so much more leverage against US imperialist policy!”
Fuck’s sake.
The diplomatic power you’re talking about is exactly why America can trash the world and nobody that matters says a damn thing about it.
“and nobody that matters says a damn thing about it.”
Literal millions. Holy fucking shit, do you not remember the Chechnyan wars? Syria? The war in fucking Ukraine?
Yeah that’s a few hundred thousand tops, not at all millions. Also, since you brought up Ukraine: Russia has been in post-2014 Ukraine (so excluding territory they occupied in 2014) for three years and counting, while America steamrolled the Iraqi government in less than three weeks. It’s actually possible to resist weaker imperialist countries, but there’s nothing a country can do when the US knocks on their door except acquiesce or perish.
Let’s see, we’ve got Sudan, Syria, and Ukraine. So that’s three at minimum.
How many has the US funded in the past 30 years? Israel’s?
Fair enough.
You fucking think that in the post-9/11 fury we would have given two shits if Europe (checks notes) objected slightly louder than they already did?
Given Europe’s reaction to refugee crises in the Middle East (including, you know, calling them crises) I’d expect a bit more than objecting slightly louder. As MAGAt are about to find out, the relationship between Europe and America goes both ways. If Europe had threatened to impose economic punishments on America, or hell even just stop buying US weapons like they’re doing right now, even Bush would’ve had to think twice.
Yeah that’s a few hundred thousand tops, not at all millions.
Estimates of the total number of deaths in the Syrian Civil War, by various war monitors, range between 580,000 as of May 2021,[1] and approximately 656,493 as of March 2025.
The Chechen separatist sources in 2003 cited figures of some 250,000 civilians, and up to 50,000 Russian servicemen, killed during the 1994-2003 period. The rebel side also acknowledged about 5,000 separatist combatants killed as of 1999–2004, mostly in the initial phases of the war.
According to a report published by Le Monde in November 2024, the war may have killed over 150,000 civilians through the combined tolls of bombardments, massacres, starvation and disease.[247] A November 2024 report from the London School of Hygiene & Tropical Medicine estimated more than 61,000 deaths in Khartoum State alone, for the period between April 2023 and June 2024.[265]
Russia in the still-ongoing Russo-Ukrainian War:
198,000 killed, 550,000+ wounded
Ukraine:
50,000 killed,[135] 380,000 wounded
And that’s only for the ones they’ve been directly involved in, as mentioned, there are plenty of brutal civil wars and dictatorships Russia maintains support for a la the US and Israel.
Also, since you brought up Ukraine: Russia has been in post-2014 Ukraine (so excluding territory they occupied in 2014) for three years and counting, while America steamrolled the Iraqi government in less than three weeks. It’s actually possible to resist weaker imperialist countries, but there’s nothing a country can do when the US knocks on their door except acquiesce or perish.
Okay, so now that we’ve cut ties with Europe, how would that reduction in diplomatic power, which we have established as the only meaningful reduction in ‘imperial’ capabilities resulting from going full fascist, have reduced our war-waging capabilities in Iraq?
Go ahead. I’m very interested in seeing this analysis of how a hollowed-out pariah state up against the foremost military power in the world is comparable to a rotted military a third of its size up against a country materially backed by the entirety of the West.
Given Europe’s reaction to refugee crises in the Middle East (including, you know, calling them crises) I’d expect a bit more than objecting slightly louder. As MAGAt are about to find out, the relationship between Europe and America goes both ways. If Europe had threatened to impose economic punishments on America, or hell even just stop buying US weapons like they’re doing right now, even Bush would’ve had to think twice.
Bush would’ve had to think twice because, despite being an imperialist fuckwad, he wasn’t an out and out fascist with total control over his own party, likewise compromised of fascists.
And that’s only for the ones they’ve been directly involved in, as mentioned, there are plenty of brutal civil wars and dictatorships Russia maintains support for a la the US and Israel.
You’re going beyond the 20 year cutoff but either way that’s still less than half the US total in the same time period.
Go ahead. I’m very interested in seeing this analysis of how a hollowed-out pariah state up against the foremost military power in the world is comparable to a rotted military a third of its size up against a country materially backed by the entirety of the West.
Iraq was a hollowed out pariah state in part because of Europe following the American position. Also like I said, a strong European response would’ve lowered the scale of the war, if not outright avoided it. And since we’re talking about Iraq,
During the 1990s and 2000s, many surveys and studies found child mortality more than doubled during the sanctions,[8][9][10] with estimates ranging from 227,000[11] to 500,000[12] excess deaths among children under the age of 5.
That’s a quarter to half a million deaths in one country caused solely by American diplomatic and economic clout.
Bush would’ve had to think twice because, despite being an imperialist fuckwad, he wasn’t an out and out fascist with total control over his own party, likewise compromised of fascists.
Trump has total control over his party, but he still has people he needs to appease—including the military-industrial complex. I can’t tell you what will result from the inevitable conflict between Trump and the oligarchy, but it’s not going to be good for Trump’s regime.
You can only say “ends justify the means” if you can achieve the ends, otherwise you loose. The whole point of the saying is that the reaching the goal is the only important thing, how you get there does not matter. We’ll have to wait and see if the destination will be reached.
The whole point of the saying is that the reaching the goal is the only important thing, how you get there does not matter.
Actually, the whole point of the saying is that the ends do not justify the means. Not in that way, at least. Machiavelli was a much cooler person than people give him credit.
The prince who reaches his ends does not become justified in the moral sense of being proven right or just. They are not a ‘good’ person because they achieved their ends, even if the ends were noble.
They become justified in the sense of being absolved by society and not being held to account for their crimes.
In the actions of all men, and especially of princes, where there is no court to appeal to, one looks to the end. So let prince win and maintain his state: the means will always be judged honorable, and will be praised by everyone.
In other words, “The ends justify the means” does not mean “the end was worthy of the means.”
It means whoever wins in the end will not be held accountable for the means they used to get there.
Okay they’re being stupid about it (Trump is a liberal? C’mon) but they’re right. The ends do justify the means in this case, because Americans have repeatedly failed to get to these ends via any other means. If America won’t stop being imperialist, I’ll settle for them being incompetently imperialist thank you. I mean don’t get me wrong the best scenario is still for an anti-imperialist government to take power in America, but that doesn’t seem awfully likely.
The weird thing is you could probably describe the Republican party as liberal for most of their existence but not anymore certainly. Certainly not the last 10 years. Trump’s what killed that.
It would seem ‘incompetently imperialist’ hurts more people.
I feel like people are forgetting fascist countries become problems for every country.
They’re also forgetting whatever solidifies under trump will outlast him, so whatever grace the world thinks they have with Trump’s “incompetence” will soon be replaced by competence. Doesn’t matter if they can trick Americans into liking them, voting won’t be a thing. World domination is one hundred percent the goal. Look at how much they’re already influencing European fascist parties.
Who? As far as I know the only things Trump has done that appreciably hurt non-Americans and aren’t American business as usual (so other than funding Israel and bombing Yemen) are cutting aid for Ukraine and tariffs, neither of which are imperialist actions (even if the former is vile and the latter is just fucking stupid).
Abolishing USAID, destroying long-standing defensive alliances with democratic countries, revoking funding for numerous scientific studies and projects (including medical and climate change projects which would have resulted in worldwide harm reduction from serious ongoing issues), starting a new arms race wherein not only have numerous countries signaled a desire to increase defense spending but also a widespread desire to acquire nuclear arms now that open imperialism is back in vogue, support for Israeli attacks in the West Bank (a line even the fucking Bush admin wouldn’t cross), support of far-right parties and cultural movements in other countries (including fascists like the recently chastised Le Pen)…
And we’re not even a third of the way through the first fucking year of this administration.
Fucking what? How the fuck is attempting to use economic power to extract concessions from smaller countries not imperialist? For that matter, how is attempting to assist the takeover of a sovereign country by an imperialist power in the name of some fuckwadded power politics interpretation of international affairs not imperialist?
We’re sitting here with a projected death toll in the literal millions (yes, millions of non-Americans, as lowly American civilians don’t matter) three fucking months into this administration, with further immediate and serious threats to multiple countries.
Maybe killing the American Empire through fucking fascism will not result in an ideal outcome for the world?
Just a fucking thought.
Okay that’s fair. I still don’t see any imperialist actions (words don’t count) here.
Okay fair enough again. It doesn’t seem to be all that effective, but it is imperialist.
I mean Trump’s support for the far right in the democratic West is shaping up to be more of a hindrance than a benefit so with that view it’s a win for anti-imperialism if anything.
So about the same as the war on terror then. Or, adjusted for population, the Vietnam war. I haven’t looked at American intervention in South Africa, but it’s probably similar. Also that massive death toll is mostly American aid being pulled so it shouldn’t increase much until he starts a war somewhere. You also now have Israel (AKA America’s unsinkable aircraft carrier) trying to restart the goddamn Syrian civil war. I don’t disagree that fascism in America will do great amounts of harm to a lot of people, but you seem to be underestimating just how much harm America does already.
I mean yeah obviously. I said as much myself, but given how modern America seems intent on killing a few millions or so people every decade and otherwise oppressing tens or hundreds of millions, and how Americans don’t seem to give enough of a shit to do anything about that when it’s their team doing it… eh, worse trades have been made.
Funding doesn’t count either, I guess imperialism is only when you bomb someone, and the more you bomb someone the more imperialist it is.
… this the same democratic West which is having unprecedented levels of support for far-right parties?
Yes, we’re looking at a projected death toll, just from the starting three months of fascist fuckwit policies, as some of the longest and most impactful conflicts of the post-WW2 US. One with a particularly sharp eye might note that that is a very bad start to what is likely going to be a very long regime.
… what.
Does that not count as a war? Or the aforementioned support for Israel expanding their current phase of the genocide to the West Bank? Or the support for Israeli strikes against Lebanon and continued occupation?
Israel isn’t the US’s unsinkable aircraft carrier, because Israel is only cooperative insofar as it helps Israeli aims. Israel is a kingmaker for domestic US politics ever since the evangelicals got involved as a major force, and they’ve decided to put their weight behind a fascist king which will support them as they continue to murder US citizens and journalists and sell US military secrets to whoever the fuck they feel like it.
No, I’m really not. You’re underestimating just how much harm the US will continue to do under a fascist regime. You’re cheering for the US’s international position to revert to what it was pre-WW2. Unfortunately for literally everyone, the US was still immensely imperialist before it had robust ties with other democratic states.
What you’re cheering for is not “The US will do fewer horrible things!”, it’s “The US will continue to do horrible things, but what good we do will now be cancelled.” Subsidizing the defence of democratic European states? Already fucking canceled. Supporting free journalism? Already cancelled. Humanitarian aid to literal millions of people? Already cancelled. Mutual economic agreements? Already cancelled. Contributions to technologies with applications for the public good? Already cancelled. And this is just the fucking start of it.
But if you think “Europe no longer likes us :(” will stop a fascist regime from bombing Iran or Syria or the Ivory Coast or fucking Peru, you’ve got another thing coming.
No, funding absolutely does, but your list didn’t include funding anything.
Yes, exactly that democratic West. Trump is a hindrance for the European far-right, not a boon.
Again, that massive death toll is mostly American aid being pulled so it shouldn’t increase much until he starts a war somewhere.
Yes, this is exactly the business as usual that America losing clout with the NATO-aligned West is going to reduce. Israel can only act with impunity because Europe won’t challenge it, again because of American influence (otherwise Europe has literally nothing to gain out of supporting Israel). Remember that Israel’s largest trading partner is the EU, not America.
As opposed to all other US administrations since Reagan who have materially opposed or punished Israel for murdering US citizens and journalists or selling US military secrets to whoever the fuck they feel like it? Again, this is business as usual.
Yes, but its imperialism in terms of area and impact exploded during and after the cold war.
“Europe no longer likes us :(” won’t stop them, but European sanctions might.
You uh
you sure about that
That seems an extremely curious conclusion to reach considering the surge in support for the far-right since the start of this year. One might even suspect it of being motivated reasoning.
… do you think that the death toll won’t increase until he starts a war?
It’ll increase with whatever the next fascist fuckwit policy is, and the administration is far from finished. Like holy shit, c’mon. Three months is not the end of the fucking race. We have, at minimum, another 45 fucking months of new and exciting fascist policies which will kill people.
Jesus fucking Christ.
Oh yes, as we all know, there are no other genocidal hypermilitarized states in the world that Europe doesn’t challenge. Europe, happily, is out there playing world police for any state that isn’t protected by the US.
Europe also has nothing to gain out of supporting Russia, yet there remains significant demographics which are full-throated in their support for Russia.
Maybe reducing everything to materialist analysis is incredibly fucking blinkered?
Okay? So is Europe willing to hurt itself economically to punish Israel and the US? Europe’s morals are, of course, super strong; that’s why we go for an idealist analysis for Europe but a materialist analysis for everywhere else in the world? I’m sure European countries aren’t struggling with far-right agitation on both cultural and economic grounds.
“and after the Cold War”
are you fucking stupid.
I love that I can demonstrate the Trump regime going above and beyond on Israel and your response is still a “It’s business as usual!”
Whatever, man. If you’re so fucking desperate to critically deepthroat fascism in the hopes that the American Empire will be the pure evil regime you so desire it to be (obviously, no one would side with a powerful and self-interested genocidal regime, like China or Russia or the Saudis, so when it happens to the US, everything will finally be okay in world politics 😊), far be it from me to stop you.
Yes? Your list included cutting funding, but I’m not seeing anyone being funded here other than Israel (business as usual). Well you also mention the European far-right, but while I don’t know much about their relationship with MAGA other than that it exists I doubt National Rally or AfD are getting American tax money.
Huh? What surge? I could be missing something, but I’ve only heard of European far-right parties trying to distance themselves from Trump and the Trump rampage losing Canada’s Conservatives a near-guaranteed majority.
Yeah probably, but how is he going to kill more on-Americans than he already did and is by cutting foreign aid? There’s only so much you can do to kill people outside your country without going to war.
I can’t think of any genocidal hypermilitarized state that Europe isn’t at odds with other than Israel. However, even if there was, the Middle East is Europe’s backyard and would be their sphere of influence if it wasn’t already claimed by America, so they want it to be stable because when it’s not stable refugees flood Europe. Well, more accurately Europe feels like it’s being flooded with immigrants but that’s neither here nor there.
Something something war on terror.
He goes above and beyond on Israel rhetoric, and frankly neither I nor anybody else give a shit about what the US government has to say about Israel. Call me when he actually does something more than what Biden already did.
I mean, plenty of people would side with a powerful and self-interested genocidal regime, but fortunately Trump has made it a point to actively antagonize his closest and most powerful allies so there’s not much reason to worry about that possibility. No ally Trump can possibly make would make up for the hole left by Europe and Canada.
To be fair , we’re only at the first phase of fascist takeover. Eventually they’ll look outwards as they’ve already started signalling with Canada, Panama and Greenland.
That’s true in the short term (or maybe not; they have enough internal “enemies” to last them for years), but in the medium to long term their ability to project power will be too degraded for them to amount to much on the world stage. Absolutely sucks for Canada and Greenland, but given the amount of evil America supports worldwide from their position as hegemonic superpower it’s likely still a reduction in overall imperialism in the world.
I don’t know. They could easily trigger WW3
I don’t think so. Given how spineless modern Europe in general is they’ll probably not fight the US over Greenland. I could see Europe supporting Canada like they are Ukraine in the case of a US-Canada war, but that’s about it.
Liberalism isn’t just as defined by USA.
I can’t say yet the ends justify the means. That depends whether what rises from the ashes is better or worse for the entire planet.
I don’t know whether it’ll be better or worse, but either way it’ll be weaker. Assuming Trump has his way, it’ll be a long time—if ever—before America can throw its way around the world like it does today. The web of alliances (read: army of accomplices) it uses to bully the Global South into submission is irreparably broken.
Holy shit.
You wanna fucking remind me what significantly weaker imperialist countries like Russia do around the world?
The USA’s vast diplomatic power is the least fucking objectionable thing about our foreign policy, and that’s what’s being dismantled. You think the fucking massive intelligence apparatus and the world’s largest military is going to fucking vanish into thin air? Our most horrific imperialist actions have been done unilaterally, or near-unilaterally. We didn’t need fucking Poland to help us invade Iraq. We didn’t need the Aussies to help us bomb Vietnam. You think the US becoming a pariah state is going to help further US policy on that front?
Fucking insanity.
Jesus fucking Christ.
What’s Russian imperialism’s death toll in the last two decades? How many people live under Russian-supported dictatorships? How many genocides has Russia funded? As shown by Russia, significantly weaker imperialist powers cause significantly less harm, just as I said.
The US’s vast diplomatic and economic power helps gain global buy-in and coerce support for those objectionable things about your foreign policy.
They’d have been a lot less unilateral if Europe had raised a stink about yet another refugee crisis happening in their backyard. The diplomatic power you’re talking about is exactly why America can trash the world and nobody that matters says a damn thing about it.
Literal millions. Holy fucking shit, do you not remember the Chechnyan wars? Syria? The war in fucking Ukraine?
Sudan, Syria until a few months ago, the Donbass, Belarus, Venezuela, CAR, Mali, Burkino Faso, parts of Chad…
Let’s see, we’ve got Sudan, Syria, and Ukraine. So that’s three at minimum.
How many has the US funded in the past 30 years? Israel’s?
“An imperialist country a third of the size and much poorer does less harm than an imperialist country three times its size and significantly wealthier”
Wow, very insightful.
Yes, of course, that’s why we roped in Europe to support our invasion of Iraq.
… really?
You fucking think that in the post-9/11 fury we would have given two shits if Europe (checks notes) objected slightly louder than they already did? And now you’re looking at a fascist regime which explicitly opposes outside economic influence and saying “Wow! Now those other democratic states will have so much more leverage against US imperialist policy!”
Fuck’s sake.
“and nobody that matters says a damn thing about it.”
Jesus fucking Christ.
Yeah that’s a few hundred thousand tops, not at all millions. Also, since you brought up Ukraine: Russia has been in post-2014 Ukraine (so excluding territory they occupied in 2014) for three years and counting, while America steamrolled the Iraqi government in less than three weeks. It’s actually possible to resist weaker imperialist countries, but there’s nothing a country can do when the US knocks on their door except acquiesce or perish.
Fair enough.
Given Europe’s reaction to refugee crises in the Middle East (including, you know, calling them crises) I’d expect a bit more than objecting slightly louder. As MAGAt are about to find out, the relationship between Europe and America goes both ways. If Europe had threatened to impose economic punishments on America, or hell even just stop buying US weapons like they’re doing right now, even Bush would’ve had to think twice.
Russia in the still-ongoing Russo-Ukrainian War:
Ukraine:
And that’s only for the ones they’ve been directly involved in, as mentioned, there are plenty of brutal civil wars and dictatorships Russia maintains support for a la the US and Israel.
Okay, so now that we’ve cut ties with Europe, how would that reduction in diplomatic power, which we have established as the only meaningful reduction in ‘imperial’ capabilities resulting from going full fascist, have reduced our war-waging capabilities in Iraq?
Go ahead. I’m very interested in seeing this analysis of how a hollowed-out pariah state up against the foremost military power in the world is comparable to a rotted military a third of its size up against a country materially backed by the entirety of the West.
Bush would’ve had to think twice because, despite being an imperialist fuckwad, he wasn’t an out and out fascist with total control over his own party, likewise compromised of fascists.
You’re going beyond the 20 year cutoff but either way that’s still less than half the US total in the same time period.
Iraq was a hollowed out pariah state in part because of Europe following the American position. Also like I said, a strong European response would’ve lowered the scale of the war, if not outright avoided it. And since we’re talking about Iraq,
-Wikipedia
That’s a quarter to half a million deaths in one country caused solely by American diplomatic and economic clout.
Trump has total control over his party, but he still has people he needs to appease—including the military-industrial complex. I can’t tell you what will result from the inevitable conflict between Trump and the oligarchy, but it’s not going to be good for Trump’s regime.
You can only say “ends justify the means” if you can achieve the ends, otherwise you loose. The whole point of the saying is that the reaching the goal is the only important thing, how you get there does not matter. We’ll have to wait and see if the destination will be reached.
Actually, the whole point of the saying is that the ends do not justify the means. Not in that way, at least. Machiavelli was a much cooler person than people give him credit.
The prince who reaches his ends does not become justified in the moral sense of being proven right or just. They are not a ‘good’ person because they achieved their ends, even if the ends were noble.
They become justified in the sense of being absolved by society and not being held to account for their crimes.
In other words, “The ends justify the means” does not mean “the end was worthy of the means.”
It means whoever wins in the end will not be held accountable for the means they used to get there.
What he says is true though.
Morality is not a law of nature.
I’m not sure how what you said contradicts what I wrote.
Yes, thanks for rephrasing.