Lemmy reacts to a non-sexualized silly outfit pic in a totally normal way…
Previous posts in this series…
- incredible find: https://lemmy.cafe/post/10217719
- epic ratio: https://lemmy.cafe/post/9597634
- lemmy is a worse platform for women than reddit was: https://lemmy.cafe/post/4821164
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If people act like that on 196, please report it
Related to the previous posts bit, but I remember first seeing the Man vs. Bear memes.
I’ll admit it was hard not to take it personally at first, because even if you agreed with the core of the message, it feels like you’re being lumped in with the worst of menkind for no good reason. That’s probably why the reaction was so toxic, because people just replied with their gut reaction, which was to take offence…
But upon giving it a bit of thought, I realised that as a guy who’s lived in some dodgy areas, I think I too would oftentimes prefer to take my chances with a bear than alone with a stranger at night - not cause I think I’d beat the bear, but at least you know what the bear’s probably gonna do…
And if I feel that way being a man, then considering (on average) women are weaker than men of the same build, I can see why women would feel that way too.
Indian metal band Bloodywood has the best take on the “all men” issue:
Not all men?
Yes all men!
Need all men for what we’re solving
Can’t be what it’s been but we’re evolvingThe patriarchy privileges every man, which means every man needs to fight the system. If every man who hears the message and isn’t an abuser stands up and does something, we can end the patriarchy. It’s not “every man is guilty”, it’s “every man is responsible, and we can end it together.”
And the rest of the song is about punching rapists.
I agree with this and I have absolutely no desire to undermine the problems that women face. However I think it is also important to understand how many men also feel oppressed by the patriarchy as well. Obviously women have been and continue to be oppressed to a far greater and much more literal degree, but so many men feel this immense pressure to “be a man.” This frustration at feeling inadequate because of these immense pressures is what makes so many men as dangerous and unpredictable as they are. I really think this is a major part of the issue, we need more men to stand up and realize that they don’t have to conform to some shitty societal idea of what masculinity should be, same as how women have been fighting against their own traditional gender roles. Any man who can feel secure in being himself regardless of society’s expectations should help the men in his life to understand the same. Maybe then we’d have less insecure, dangerous men running around.
“Italians do it better” is an intentional double entendre, so I feel moving to a more sexual commentary is not wholly out of the ballpark of reasonableness.
Fuck “Is this your first day on the internet” response, though, and the other two weird comments.
We really 95% male here, though? I thought it was more like 70-30.
Nope, rare PugJesus L I’m sorry. It’s an obvious Madonna reference.
Wearing Madonna’s clothes is not a reasonable invitation to body objectification. Really, wearing any clothes should never be considered a sexual invitation without further context or permission.
Nope, rare PugJesus L I’m sorry. It’s not a double entendre, it’s an obvious Madonna reference.
… is it not a double-entendre when she wore it in that video? I’ve only ever heard it (and adaptations) used in the context of a double-entendre, and the song’s lyrics and visuals don’t seem to contradict any such interpretation. I mean, it’s literally used in the scene where the boy who presumably impregnates the girl of the lyrics/video/Madonna’s depiction first catches her eyes in a clear depiction of a sexually charged first meeting/attraction/whatever.
Wearing Madonna’s clothes, especially clothes that reference a pretty serious non-sexual video, is not a reasonable invitation to body objectification.
I mean, commenting on a rando’s selfie that’s not posted by said rando is so devoid of context that I often have trouble discerning what is and is not appropriate (regarding the behavior of the commenters, not myself - I generally don’t have the urge to comment on said photos), so it’s more of a general observation, but, absent all that, “Woman wearing a shirt with a sexualized message gets a sexualized joke directly related to the content of that message” does not seem, on a first reading, absurd, other than in general crassness that can be applied to sexualized jokes about people in any circumstance.
If she was uncomfortable with it, it would be unambiguously wrong instead of just lacking in context that would make it appropriate (ie an offense rather than a mistake). But, as I said - unless a rando’s selfie is uploaded by said rando, there’s no context, so my observation of whether the comment is appropriate is in a vacuum, and may not fit the context of the conversation or atmosphere of the comment thread.
(edited for clarifications)
Okay… let’s back up. Forget the text on the shirt— A woman’s clothes do not make an invitation to objectification. Period. Other context might, but just clothes does not do it. Hope this is clear haha.
(To answer your question yes it is a double entendre in the video. But if some in-universe character sexualized Madonna’s character in the video simply over the shirt it would still he inappropriate. Fans wear merch all the time, people wear revealing clothes all the time, and none of that gives an OK to sexualization.)
if someone wears a shirt specifically designed to draw attention to their larger than average breasts, perhaps people should not be surprised when people… yknow… pay attention to said breasts?
with that being said, the actual content of the comments, pretty gross and degrading… but the fact that the comments are about breasts should not be surprising in the slightest
Okay… let’s back up. Forget the text on the shirt— A woman’s clothes do not make an invitation to objectification. Period. Other context might, but just clothes does not do it. Hope this is clear haha.
Sure, which is why context is important, and why rando selfies uploaded by someone other than the rando are difficult to place in context and pretty inherently uncomfortable to me. Sexual jokes about other people are also generally uncomfortable to me, but I also recognize that it’s a form of humor that is not inherently illegitimate.
My point here is only that “On a pic of someone with a shirt with a sexual joke on it, a commenter makes a sexual joke related to the shirt’s sexual joke” is not entirely out of left field. There is a clear chain of thought that is not inherently absurd, not just “The first thing thought of when they saw a woman is ‘comment on her breasts for no reason’”. Your view is that he misread the context - that the context is NOT sexual and humorous, his view is that the context was sexual and humorous to begin with; mine is that these contextless selfies who aren’t posted by the, uh, self, lend themselves to this kind of clash.
(To answer your question yes it is a double entendre in the video but this isn’t the video. Fans wear merch all the time, and merch that has suggestive content still doesn’t give an OK to sexualization.)
I know this is secondary to the main point, but I can’t held but return to it - if it’s a double entendre in the video and a double entendre in common usage, how is its usage on the shirt not a double entendre?
“On a pic of someone with a shirt with a sexual joke on it, a commenter makes a sexual joke related to the shirt’s sexual joke” is not entirely out of left field.
Okay agree. Just please approach this “well technically” rhetoric with caution. Can be easily misread, as I did, just in the opposite direction.
…how is its usage on the shirt not a double entendre?
It is, I just phrased it weird. Let me go edit it.
Okay agree.
Cool, we’re in agreement. 🙏
It’s not appropriate (as the context of the selfie originator is unavailable, and absent that context or other signifiers, any selfie should be assumed to be non-sexual), but it is dependent on an assumption of or misreading of context (presumably in good faith) rather than a sheer bloody-minded determination to give a passing woman the metaphorical wolf-whistle.
Just please approach this “well technically” rhetoric with caution. Can be easily misread, as I did, just in the opposite direction.
I mean, it’s more than a technicality considering your response was to accuse him of having his first thought upon seeing a woman to comment on her breasts unprovoked. “This your first time on the internet?” implying that such comments are inherently acceptable is a dick response from him, so fuck him, but a defensive response of some sort was going to be inevitable given the (ha) context.
If I mess up cleaning a pan because I rarely use pans (tinfoil brigade reporting), messing up cleaning the pan is not made okay by the fact that I do it rarely (I should have been prepared, I should have been more attentive, etc), but if someone accuses me of having left the pan dirty on purpose, I will absolutely respond with vitriol, when otherwise I would have inquired as to what I did wrong or been apologetic (not to imply that that’s the average response from someone objectifying someone else inappropriately, simply pointing out that IF they’re reachable, they then become less reachable by that human reaction). Because then it’s been transformed from a mistake to a deliberate offense.
Completely off topic but it’s funny to me that when we have a cordial disagreement I get pummeled with downvotes—even if we come to an understanding in the end.
The power you wield, PugJesus. Use it responsibly.
Oh hey, I’m in this screenshot making an off-color comment. We can debate misogyny and such, probably won’t be very productive.
The thing I find interesting in this: “Italians Do It Better” is an inherently sexual statement. Everyone knows that IT is sex and maybe some other reference with this style of bumper sticker meme. That’s what makes it funny. So then, is it wrong to make a sexual joke about someone who is wearing a funny sexual statement? I don’t think so.
If she were wearing a plain tee or some other logo, I wouldn’t make a sexual joke. This feels like white knight silliness to me.
The IT is vague and open-ended, not inherently sexual. Its inherently ambiguous and people fill in the blank with whatever is being referenced. We really don’t know what IT means to the person wearing it, but you chose to make it sexual.
I don’t know how to tell you this, but when people refer to “doing it” without any additional context, they’re talking about sex. The shirt is undeniably sexual.
I assumed IT in this post was referring to murdering CEOs.
your attitude makes the places you go unbearable. do better.
You don’t know me or the women and NBs I associate with. Thanks for playing.
Which one was yours? Looks like the mods agree it wasn’t conducive to the environment they want.
Would you proudly tell the women and enbies in your life about the comment on a woman’s body you left on the internet? And ultimately even if, in the context of a friendship, and the folks you associate with, this would be taken well, don’t you think it’s worth listening when people say you’re being creepy and off putting?
I mean, I still totally probably would.
Back in my drinking days, I definitely would have taken her home at last call.
I didn’t comment about her body in that comment.
Anyhow, with caveats, I would totally make that comment in front of the right crowd. I’ve been to a lot of kink parties and drag shows. Cis-het peeps don’t have a monopoly on catty coments.
If someone wears a shirt with a sexual statement on it, then others will make sexual statements about them.
I didn’t even think about the Luigi/Italian thing until I read it in a comment. To me, that shirt said that she has sex better than people who aren’t Italian.
I did make a deleted comment referring to her Botox or plastic surgery and that I considered it a red flag. I find uncanny valley plastic surgery profoundly unattractive. I don’t remember exactly what I said. It was flippant and arguably objectification.
So, I misread the room and my joke was poorly received. I haven’t read the rules for shitposting or whatever and would not be surprised if I violated a rule.
From my view, the shirt with a funny sexual statement invites other sexual statements. I think that anyone that denies that the slogan is a double entendre is naive at best. The level of outrage amusing.
What gross things to say.
I didn’t comment about her body in that comment.
Ah so when you replied to someone commenting on her body and face saying that you would “still” have sex with her after drinking, that was a comment on her deep and rich personality? Just because you didn’t literally mention her body in it doesn’t make the comment not about her body, and I think you know that.
with caveats … in front of the right crowd.
Maybe a public forum with a person you don’t know is not the right place to make those.
I’ve been to a lot of kink parties and drag shows.
No one is impressed by “I have a black friend”, stop using is as justification.
Cis-het peeps don’t have a monopoly on catty coments.
No one said they did, and if you want to get into the weeds of this, folks that are also subjugated under patriarchy share a kinship and an understanding of the contexts and ways ‘catty’ comments should be made. Maybe going to a couple drag shows doesn’t give you the proper context to understand what justifies a ‘catty’ comment. Maybe a random internet commenter saying they “still would” doesn’t come off as a clever fun sassy razzing all the drag queens do. Maybe instead it sounds like basement dweller saying “she’s not hot like the chicks I jerk off to, but I guess I would still fuck her”.
I did make a deleted comment referring to her Botox or plastic surgery and that I considered it a red flag. I find uncanny valley plastic surgery profoundly unattractive. I don’t remember exactly what I said. It was flippant and arguably objectification.
Wow, I am so proud of you for realizing how wildly disgusting this comment is before leaving it up for too long. I would suggest you grow as a person and have that realization when you think it, and guide yourself away from being a creep.
From my view, the shirt with a funny sexual statement invites other sexual statements.
It doesn’t. Stop.
“if i was at a kink party or drag show” ITS A SILLY MEME SUBCOMM NOT A BURLESQUE SHOW FUNK OFF 😭
call me insane, but i want to be able to click on a silly image of a niche micro celebrity i love for her persona doing an incredibly tame expression of her sexuality and not be subjected to 6+ comments about how you “totally would” and “boobs lol” comments. go repost to r/celebsnsfw or wherever and make those comments in that context if you absolutely can’t keep it in your pants.
thanks for your comment ❤️
