- cross-posted to:
- lemmyshitpost@lemmy.world
- cross-posted to:
- lemmyshitpost@lemmy.world
cross-posted from: https://lemmy.world/post/53157502
I kind of don’t understand the joy about independence days for the most part because usually they’re just shifting control from one set of assholes abroad to a different set of assholes locally.
I also wonder if I’d have guaranteed health insurance if we’d stay’d with the British, and if we would have gotten rid of slavery sooner…
My feelings about the 4th of July specifically are tied up with my feelings about the United States in general, and I don’t see that much reason to celebrate.
I think that’s a shallow view, and we are standing so high atop the shoulders of giants, we don’t notice them. I recently listened to Ken Burns, he makes a very valid point on just how amazingly impactful the American revolution is to human history once we think about it!
It radically changed how we think about human governance, (some) people became citizens with unalienable rights and freedom, not peasants and subjects of a king. It took centuries of enlightenment thought about the rights of man, and distilled it into an intensely radical new form of government, based on:
“We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, are endowed with unalienable Rights, Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness, that to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed,—That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it”
Quothe Ken Burns directly:
The second sentence of the Declaration is the most important sentence, second most important sentence in the English language after ‘I love you.’ I mean, there’s nothing better than that sentence, and it says: ‘We hold these truths to be self-evident.’ There is nothing self-evident about these truths! They’ve never been introduced in this way, quite this way before, that all men are created equal.
Nobody knew how this would shake out at the time, and I think just dismissing the immense sea change that created our modern idea of what humans deserve is unfair. The American Revolution radically changed the world for all of humanity, don’t take it for granted!
Yes, it’s very pretty and also very theoretical. We had slavery, genocide, and the war to end slavery was actually a violation of the principle of self governance you yourself quote (though I would be in favor).
They were desperately looking for a right to self-governance in an age of kings, so they found one. That’s cool. But a country should be judged by its actions, not its propaganda and internal mythology.
Evil also came about, yes. Not to dismiss it, but if a nation’s legacy is exclusively the sum of blood spilled, I ask you to show me one that is not utterly drenched in evil.
And I think you’re missing the point. This wasn’t just some “huh, not being slaves to the king would be a neat change” theory some guy wrote down, these were intensely radical, new ideas about what it means to be a human that people took up arms over, that changed the world forever. “They did bad, too, so let’s ignore the good” is a wild black and white way to view history, that utterly discounts how radical and world-shaking the ideas behind the American Revolution are. We’re a quarter millenia steeped in those ideals, so we take them for granted, like that’s the way the world always was.
The IMMENSE changes in human philosophy and governance the American Revolution brought about absolutely deserves celebration!
“Yes, evil came about” lol
America was the first, but the philosophical foundations had been laid in Europe. It’s not like nobody would have figured it out without God himself revealing the Declaration of Independence to Thomas Jefferson on the heights of Guan or whatever. Get over yourself.
but if a nation’s legacy is exclusively the sum of blood spilled, I ask you to show me one that is not utterly drenched in evil.
You forgot to answer that!
And would it be reasonable to discount Isaac Newton’s contributions to mathematics because “its not like nobody would have figured it out without God…”? Actually doing the thing matters.
I think you’re missing the forest for the trees. The ideas and ideals the American Revolution brought to the world (not always practiced as preached) are absolutely world shaking and inspiring. While I know ‘america bad’ is fashionable, we really should think about what the American Revolution, where tens of thousands fought and died for the first war ever fought for the unalienable rights of all mankind, philosophically meant to the world.
This is a nation not founded on a shared ancestry, a shared religion, or a shared history, this is a nation founded on some of the most amazing Ideals in human history, even if they’re not lived up to. Neither fascist dishonestly abusing the flag to destroy its meaning nor flippant doomer will make me not love Life, Love, and Pursuit of Happiness, and I will celebrate and aspire to the ideals this country was founded upon.
I encourage anyone and everyone to watch Ken Burns’ civil war, you just might have your mind expanded!
https://www.pbs.org/kenburns/the-american-revolution (Also give PBS a couple bucks, they need it)
While I know ‘america bad’ is fashionable, we really should think about what the American Revolution, where tens of thousands fought and died for the first war ever fought for the unalienable rights of all mankind, philosophically meant to the world.
Jesus Fucking Christ, do you actually believe that shit? We fought the war because we didn’t want to pay taxes.
I’m not saying that it’s not great that we came up with a cool justification for it, but, again, I repeat, the philosophical foundations had been laid in Europe, and the United States was just the first convenient location for those ideas to flower. Don’t confuse the soil for the seed.
Ashokan Farewell is a frequent earworm of mine, though Shelby Foote desperately needed some pushback.
Edit: Oh, revolutionary war. Yeah. I might have to watch it. You do realize Ken Burns, like all documentarians, has a definite point of view he’s trying to get across? Seems like he’s very successful at communicating his.
Edit 2: I’m not saying other countries aren’t drenched in blood, but so what? We’re talking about elevating one of the last states to abolish slavery and built upon genocide as one of the Shining Stars and that’s garbage.
but if a nation’s legacy is exclusively the sum of blood spilled, I ask you to show me one that is not utterly drenched in evil.
You forgot to answer that, again!
I think that “The war was fought for tax reasons” is a wildly reductive, surface level stoner psuedointellectual interpretation of the American Revolution. It’s like claiming Jan 6 was just tourists going for a walk, or WW2 was just some disagreements about borders; it was much, much bigger than that, you can’t just reduce something so complex into a snappy one-liner.
I’m not confusing soil and seed, you’re confusing inspiration with creation. Once again, should we discount Isaac Newton’s contributions to mathematics because someone would have done it eventually, or because someone did math before him? Should Americans take direct credit for the French Revolution? We violently opposed kings first, after all.
You really should learn more about the American Revolution, gice the doc a watch! Fascists want people hopeless and ignorant that this country was founded upon some of the most wonderful ideals humanity ever had, ideals worth fighting for and aspiring to.
We’re talking about elevating one of the last states to abolish slavery and built upon genocide as one of the Shining Stars and that’s garbage.
This looks like the disconnect.
I don’t think the other commenter is talking about elevating the US. They are defending celebrating the US’s fight for independence and it’s effect on culture across the world.
I highly doubt anyone would defend the US as a whole.


