As posted about recently in !meanwhileongrad@sh.itjust.works and !fediverselore@lemmy.ca it seems that @nutomic@lemmy.ml’s stance on transphobia has not changed and his apology only seems to be that he was sorry he got caught and that someone leaked the DM. This is concerning for an admin of Lemmy.ml and the leader of the project. I don’t think this means we should stop using Lemmy, it’s open-source and even if they embed donation links, they can be stripped out in our fork. But it does make me wonder if we should consider defederating lemmy.ml on that merit. Since if they hold such views on trans issues, it’s very likely they won’t have any desire to act on that type of transphobia being expressed on their instance.
I know that Lemmy.ml has and does handle overt transphobia well, but I can’t speak to their ability to handle less overt or thinly veiled transphobia, and this incident doesn’t inspire much confidence either.
Edit: Since some people haven’t seen the original. I decided to include it here. Warning, it contains transphobia, if you don’t want to see that, don’t open the spoiler.
CW: Transphobic talking points
I’d really like to hear Feedback from Blahaj’s local community on this, I’m not as interested in outside opinions here so please try to refrain from top-level commenting if you aren’t from lemmy.blahaj.zone (I will ignore them if you comment anyway from a remote instance).
he regularly bans people for calling .ml users out on their denial of the Uyghur genocide. he was just one stone throw away from also denying the trans genocide.
this is why authoritarians should never get the benefit of the doubt, they’ll never stick with just one dangerous belief.
I’m disappointed in nutomic’s statements as well. I won’t be donating him any money, but it seems hypocritical to say you won’t stop using Lemmy, but you want to defed from .ml.
How? It’s free and open source software. This sentiment just seems dumb. Where’s the implication that using free and open-source software like Lemmy means you need to support the devs or federate with their server? I see no such rule, and it’s not like they can stop or disallow you from using it (nature of open-source).
Anyone can host an instance and choose to run it however they like, the devs have no control in how or why people use Lemmy. It seems like a lot of people have trouble grasping this concept.
I’m not talking about rules. How is using software maintained by nutomic fundamentally different from federating with an instance they run?
If you are using the Lemmy software, which is open source, that is just an interface. (plus their are other Lemmy apps and web browser uis that aren’t maintained by the original Lemmy team. By not using their server that’s you dedicating resources into your own type of community that is govern differently and is clearly not the same as the default Lemmy.ml instance.
Since the software is open source the main simple, straight to the point difference is who is running what servers you are federated with. Using Lemmy also doesn’t automatically mean you are supporting the Lemmy devs since they are not profiting from ad revenue. They would ask for donations.
Are there ads on .ml I’m unaware of? I’m using Voyager and don’t see any. I can’t see how me using nutomic’s instance (or federating with it) benefits him any more or less than using his software project. As others have noted in this thread, moderation on .ml is generally excellent, and not tolerant of transphobia.
Ultimately, blahaj isn’t my home so I don’t expect a say in what you decide. I’m just sceptical of the logic here.
I stated that using Lemmy (the software/app) doesn’t / does not automatically mean you are supporting the original Lemmy devs. What I was mainly getting at was, when I said, “Since the software is open source the main simple, straight to the point difference is who is running what servers you are federated with.” but that also certainly extends to the the server you are on as well.
No one is saying stop using Lemmy over this, in my opinion, it’s because not one person or company owns all of Lemmy servers and communities. So the difference really lies with the specific people running your servers and communities. Can you trust them, can your instance provider trust them. Do you trust them or your instance provider.
That is the difference.
The same way that having code on your computer written by stallman doesn’t mean you support him or his views. Unless the creator backdoored it to do what they want against your authority, it doesn’t mean a whole lot.
OK sure, but how does federating (not even having an account here like me) with his instance mean you support nutomic or his views?
Using a discussion forum moderated by someone is a completely different thing than using code written by them. A mod or admin of an instance has power to shape discussion on that instance.
It’s not just about “supporting” him in some abstract sense, it’s about potentially exposing blahaj users to the very hate that blahaj is meant to be a safe space from.
When did I say that? I said we should consider defederation as a community because transphobic views of an admin are risky and may lead to inaction towards transphobia on that server. That’s the whole reason why we defederated feddit.uk before this, which is why I wanted feedback on this, from the local Blahaj.zone community.
You can block it, but defederating doesn’t seems like a good idea for me.
I’m very aligned with lgbtq ideas (even if i would like better that the notion of gender itself stopped existing, so that people would stop discriminating themselves for dumb reason and be more diverse, but that’s another subject)
But i think defederating from instances you don’t like (except the Very Bad instances) would just make the fediverse more and more torn apart.
One of the coolest things of the fediverse is that you can navigate across instances, ideologies, without the need of using multiple accounts, it’s fe-diverse! If it is to stop that, then lets just go back to forums, it would be easier.
Plus instance wars have always been a dumb thing. (personal opinion and instance which will get me roasted lol)
defederating from instances you don’t like
And that’s where you lost me since I made this post highlighting a problem with management of the server expressing harmful transphobic sentiment and now you are trying to make it out like these are petty personal opinions.
We’ve defederated from servers which allow or don’t care about transphobia already, feddit.uk is an existing example. The fact that you are dismissing the problem like this shows you don’t understand why we have such hostility towards transphobic sentiment or just don’t care.
yea let’s defederate.
somthin somthin terf-tankie-whatevr… somthin along those lines… i dun evn kno whad those words mean
- TERF = Trans Exclusionary Radical Feminists (transphobia)
- Tankie = Apologists for outright oppressive, murderous regimes like Putin’s Russia and North Korea
If there is content on defederated instances users want access to they can make accounts on other servers.
Not to automatically assume that these users want to see hateful content, but as generally small that Lemmy is, some users might feel that defederating from such a massive server not worth the lack of content and communication. Blahaj does great with protecting trans users I appreciate this, but I would suggest to consider the overall health of Lemmy overall and what such a drastic action might have on their own community. Could it results on the communities activity to decline due to less interaction?
There might be some bad communities and some other good ones on lemmy.ml, with activity and if the largest servers are defederated, now users will have to make multiple accounts on other servers and hope that they can see certain content, when it use to be if they wanted to make multiple accounts just because.
seen a couple of TERFs get bullied off of my fedi TLs lately and it warms my heart
Is this guy even real? lmao at this point he might as well admit to being a christo-facist
They’re doing what many TERFs do, trying to cover up their bigotry with politeness and trying to sound like it’s about logic or discussing the meaning of things. Trying to make their transphobia seem acceptable. Then they say trans people are unreasonable when they get called out or banned for their bigotry.
Well terfs are definitely nazis
I think defeating almost any instance is dumb, not my instance though so do what you will.
I don’t think anything significant would be lost by dumping ml. two years ago sure, the platform was too small but now ml is just annoying. I don’t know how the governance of that sever is set up. but if nutomic has control of the domain, its more a question of when will he decide to change ml rules. I trust ada to make the call when federation with ml becomes a problem. guess i’m just chiming in to reaffirm that for when the time comes. don’t know how lemmy as a platform grows long term if nutomic retains any level of control over it. but i’ll probably just be following you fuckin weirdos onto the next platform so it’s not that big a deal. maybe it could be a nostalgic return to internet forums.
Nutomic doesn’t really mod .ml much anymore.
his current mod practices are not my point. and he’s already banned from here, nutomic isnt a problem here for us in this moment. but if he retains control of the ml server/domain in some way. his responses to db0 definitely show him obsfuscating, not being naive or uninformed. when the blowback from his own statements causes him to drop the mask full-time. ml rules could become whatever he decides and the mod team becomes whatever he needs to enforce that. if the ml server governance is designed in a way to protect against that, great! the odds of it going fully hostile are lower.
Multiple states: “Let’s literally use the force of law to ban trans people from existing.”
This jackoff: “Hmmm, I just don’t know if the bourgeoisie is really against trans rights! It’s so hard to tell!”
I’m not going to weigh in on the defederation issue. I don’t use enough .ml communities to know how this guy’s views reflect in the moderation policies of the instance. But fuck him in particular.
I swear I’ve seen this exact comment in a similar thread some time ago. I think your take is flawed or even disingenuous. We all know that trans issues are manufactured outrage. Which is what nutomic appears to be saying.
This whole controversy with him reeks of comment baiting and using an off the cuff comment in order to undermine the Lemmy project. It’s no coincidence that this thread came up right after the devs say that they are running out of funding.
Why is it suddenly time to defederate with ml when this happened months ago.? The only real native thing he said is about trans sports, but honestly I don’t think the lgbtq community gave a hot damn about highschool and college women’s sports before.
Oh, fuck off with your bigoted bullshit that “we all know”.
You’re doing the exact things I accused you of. Care to respond to the rest of it?
This what you are doing here is called sealioning and you need to stop. You were denying the reality of transphobia and the struggles of trans people and you got called out for it. You need to take the feedback that you did something wrong and check yourself, they don’t owe you an explanation of their identities and experiences. You are an outsider in this safe-space for trans people.
Again with the bullshit intentional misrepresentation of what I said. It’s sus as hell that there’s such a push to destroy Lemmy when it’s one of the few safe places for trans people online.
You probably work for meta or musk or reddit trying to kill the project.
You probably work for meta or musk or reddit trying to kill the project.
Ah yes, because bad-jacketing users is totally a way to make you seem credible. Fuck off dude, this is a trans friendly space. Who do you think you are coming here telling trans people they are “just being reactionary” then sealioning and bad-jacketing users when they call you out on your bullshit.
Generally .ml is pretty trans rights, because their mods are hexbear alts.
This is just petty splitter bullshit, same as always…
But I also block .ml because their mods policies annoy me.
ml is pretty trans rights, because their mods are hexbear alt
Hexbear has had its fair share of issues with sexism and objectification of trans women. There was a pretty big upset a while ago where people spoke up about being harassed, the community’s reaction to it was pretty shitty.
That’s ironic considering a lot of them said that sexism and allowing chasers is what led them to hexbear, and why they avoided blahaj.
Not saying what they’re saying is true.
My experience is that hexbear only care about trans rights when criticizing “west”. As soon as China or Russia are discussed, they turn surprisingly silent.
YMMV
Yeah that’s probably fair, on a global political level. Still leaves them pretty rabid in terms of what they’ll let you say without banning you though.
I personally haven’t seen any transphobic posts on .ml so I don’t see a reason to block the whole instance. I also see some folx ITT taking issue with the left-leaning user base of .ml, but I don’t think we should enforce political views that aren’t related to LGBT rights here.
Left leaning? They’re extremists parotting russian propaganda.
Theyre actively harming the left, and I think it’s by design.
taking issue with the left-leaning user base of .ml
Nobody who isn’t an avid .ml user thinks the problem is their leftism. If it was, instances like Blahaj and db0 would get the same hate. I’m guessing this is your Blahaj alt account?
I personally blocked ml a long time ago and my experience is much better for it. Their moderation and userbase leave much to be desired. As far as nutomic, I would say it seems like hes not a good person from what I know, and especially this post.
It’s the first time I see the transphobic original message, and honestly I’m not surprised to see it within ML community. In general, they and the ideology is already rather cultish given their beliefs and the shunning of “wrongthink”, but there’s a smaller subsection of ML’s who genuinely believe in this kind of reactionary chauvinism that’s a complete bastardization of Marxism.
There’s probably no one on this specific community who goes “hmm maybe there’s some merit to that statement”, but in case there is:
Trans people exist, and much like proletarians, their experience is shaped by our society and material conditions. They suffer through medical gatekeeping, discrimination and state violence among other things, all of them stemming from structures of capitalist domination, and just because occasionally some bourgeoisie opportunistically exploit these issues to garner support/profit from rainbow capitalism and the like, doesn’t mean you should go full reactionary.
I keep hearing people say that beehaw is filled with reactionaries, does that hold any merit?
First time I’m hearing of that but no, it’s mostly liberal progressive types here.
Liberals, sure.
Progressives?
You can get away with all kind of reactionary nonsense as long as you’re polite about your bigotry and run around JAQing off.
This feels like cherry picked examples to try and frame nutomic as being transphobic. Its always this one screenshot, of a comment made in response to something else that I have never seen posted any of the times this has been brought up. A response without context is kind of sus.
Being uninformed or misinformed is not bigotry. There was a time when I probably would have said something similar, before I learned more, and knew better. I don’t think this is strong evidence of a real issue.
Until the point that he makes more questionable statements about trans or lgbtqia2s+ people, this is fine as far as I’m concerned. I don’t think what I have seen so far is actionable.
Edit: from reading Ada’s comments in this thread I endorse her stance.
From the very strict enforcement standards of this instance, the DM was enough to warrant a ban for nutomic, but not enough to warrant defederation for ml. That seems fine until or unless more information comes to light.
It’s far worse than this. Grad is a NAFO supremacist demonic sub that has nothing to do with trans rights, and their supremacist brainwashing agenda should always be resisted, for its deep nazi militarist roots, and no one who is not banned from that cesspool should ever be taken seriously.
In specific text exchange, the persecution target’s crime is their supposed responsibility to correct the pigfucking stalker with expressing trans maximalism “of course men should be able to cheat at women’s sport by wearing a dress”. Disagreeing with that statement is objectively not anti-trans, and Grad supremacist brainworm circlejerk, is simply deflecting from no incriminating content whatsoever, other than justifying circular hatred.
ummmm… what?
this discussion is about lemmy.ml, not lemmygrad.
If you have anything relevant to my previous comment please say so. What you typed is incoherent.
If you have information about the exchange post a screenshot, and stop the insults and name calling.
cherry picked examples to try and frame nutomic as being transphobic.
I’m supporting that statement. I don’t need different screenshots from OP’s to point out that OP is showing a nothing burger.
Also, never seen lemmygrad. Just the NAFO troll site crossposted.
In that case, who or what do you mean by “grad?” And what is NAFO? I’m probably missing something.
meanwhileongrad is aNAFO militarist empire supremacist group. Unrelated shit disturbing nonsense is exemplified by this specific trolling.
Tankies showing us how close to right wing conservatives they really are. How unusual /s. Makes one look at this particular crowd’s big push to not vote in elections against a wannabe bigot fascist a little differently…
But he used the word bourgeoisie. That means it’s Marxist and left-wing. /j
I heard someone describe tankies as alt-left.
Makes one look at this particular crowd’s big push to not vote in elections against a wannabe bigot fascist a little differently
Maybe for some, but I’ve been saying for over a year that the “leftist” “don’t vote” crowd was actively shooting the cause the supposedly believe in right in the leg.
Nothing says “I believe in leftist ideals and the plight of the proletariat” like actively promoting pathways that are explicitly letting the Nazis take power.
