I agree with this, but I think we should have some kind of linguistic distinction between pride as in ‘I’m proud I’m not one of those inferior people’ and pride as in ‘I am not ashamed of my heritage’. Because having one word being used both ways has led to people with wildly diverging interpretations of the same sentence.
I didn’t even consider the first one to exist and was briefly upset at George for saying people shouldn’t be proud/accepting of their base characteristics, but what you say makes sense of it for me.
A potentially mind-blowing thing that really drives this point home:
Obama is half-black and half-white (black father and white mother). He’s often and comfortably claimed to be the first black president, but never referred to as a white president, though he’s equally both.
Some races and ethnicities have historically been considered as subtractive, and this is the often unconsidered evil of ethnic or cultural allegiance.
Logically it still made sense, IMO. If he’s half black and half white, while all previous presidents were only white, then the black part is the discriminating factor one could highlight as a success to deviate from the previous norm.
If you wanted to highlight this deviation without leaning in on the black part, you would have had to use something like “not fully white”, which would have been explicitly subtractive and therefore much worse.
Of course one could simply ignore the skin color completely, but I also see empowering in highlighting this shift of breaking an otherwise strict all white run.
This is because the American slave owners wanted to be able to sell their own children.
After raping a slave, if she got pregnant they could free their child or keep them as a slave.
Thomas Jefferson’s concubine, Sally Hemmings, was probably 3/4 white, and at least 1/2 white. Her granddaughter created a scandal when she ‘passed’ for white.
If an american tries to call themselves Native because they are 1/32 Native, people laugh at them. But up until a few years ago, being 1/64 Black made you Black.
This is why I prefer the word “celebrate”. I didn’t do anything to achieve neurodivergence, it’s not an accomplishment, so why would I be proud of it? But I can be proud of the times when I can push past the executive dysfunction and actually tidy my room.
But I can surely celebrate neurodivergence.
But that’s just me. I don’t mind if other people want to shout “autistic pride”. I used to get accused of being “proud” and “arrogant” a lot by a family member when I was mute or in shutdown, so that might be why I feel an aversion to that word.
Why do you want to hold a celebration?
Because we’re proud. Oh, dangit…
Yeah, a monosyllabic word for “I didn’t earn this, but I want to make it clear it’s not something to be ashamed of either” would be pretty dope.
That’s actually what left-wing nationalism is often about (But not always, sometimes it is economical left-populists trying to cope) Also I dont think we need anyone to tell how to relate to others. In a healthy(!) society people can sort themselves out without need to be controlled by some multi-culturalist enforcement (because idea of multiculturalism is kinda impossible)
How is ‘multiculturalism’ impossible? Try spending a day in any big city. People use words from different languages all the time. They use chopsticks and European table ware at the same meal.
You don’t even need to go to a big city. Look at the All American cowboy. Pretty much everything you associate with him comes from Mexico. His lariat comes from ‘la riata’ and his Stetson was based on a sombrero.
Then why are billionaires proud of their wealth when they were already born into it?
I think an American Indian who is proud of keeping their cultural identity alive when countless others were lost to genocide has more right to pride than rich people who lord their meaningless “accomplishments” over others.
This is true but it also makes sense why youwould wanna be patriotic(not nationalistic, important distinction). Youre born somewhere, and you dont have a choice in that, but you still grow up with people arround you who have a certain culture, who raise you, who youre freinds with. You can associate with them and try to improve your community without pushing down others. I think this is the concept patriotism is based on. Also i never get these posts, do these people truly not understand how a racist, or a nationalists mind works? The same way you should be able to put yourself into the shoes of someone recieving hate, you should be able to see from the perepective of the one hating on others. I guess that explains why there are so many asinine approaches to politics from both sides. Dont get me wrong, i hate the right, but the reason theyre outplaying us is because they can see from our perspectives better than we can see from theirs, which is very dissapointing when we should be the empathetic left. Something might not make sense but you should still understand how someone gets to that conclusion, especially since i have a pretty big problem with this specific qoute. Two of these groups, irish and italian, have recieved a lot of discrimination. Wouldnt you be proud of who you are if they discriminated against you, wouldnt you fight back? Its the same with being queer, its not a choice, thats exactly what were trying to communicate to the right, yet you have pride for the exact same reason italian and irish americans have pride, to show you are here. This qoute is basically this guys sufferring, or hate or something similar packaged in a way that makes it look smart instead. And im not blaming the guy, something drove him to react this way.
Ahh, after reading hes irish american. See? He shouldnt be pride to be born irish, instead be proud of his people and himself for going through discrimination. Today this is much less of a thing but being born in 1937 couldnt have been easy in an irish immigrant family. Theres always more to the story is all im saying. Nuance, you know.
Eat shit Lee Greenwood and go fuck yourself.
For me, that’s the différence between a nationalist and a patriot: the nationalist thinks their country is the best, the patriot wants the best for their country. A patriot will see the flaws in the system and will try to correct them for the benefit of the community. A patriot will be happy when other people will want to join the community to make it better, or to change it. A patriot is happy when the community evolves, and will work for it. A patriot can be a foreigner initially. Doesn’t change anything. The nationalist cannot accept change. Therefore, they don’t accept anything that can make their community evolve. They don’t realize their country changed in the past, they idealize a vision completely unbalanced of history and cannot see the flaws in the system.
Unfortunately today, the patriot is a nuisance and the nationalist a useful tool for the nefarious people which wants just more power and more money.
It’s easy to sell something to someone who thinks nothing should change, it’s hard to contempt someone who wants to change a system.
Does that count for gay pride, though?
People will apply this to something like gay pride, black pride, etc. But those forms of pride are about standing in opposition to prejudice, oppression, and hardship, where the inherent aspects of your existence are demonized, stereotyped, or seen as lesser. The pride is in making it through the world and accepting/celebrating yourself despite all the hate and dangers others force onto you.
Having pride in being part of a marginalized group isnt about feeling superior to other groups. It is about rebelling against those who feel themselves superior to you.
It does feel like if you switched the nouns to be black/Mexican/gay/trans this would read as hate speech.
I’m not saying he’s right or wrong, but this feels like the kind of railing against “identity politics,” that your crazy uncle spouts off at Thanksgiving.
Queer pride comes from a place of resilience in hate—that we keep on being, existing, thriving, even though there’s legislation and bad faith arguments and assholes and propaganda that undermines and demeans us.
Irish is literally the first example Carlin lists and we lived with Britain spending 800 years trying to make us stop being Irish. Still can’t work with Brits without hearing casual slurs and stereotypes, but if Carlin had one blind spot it was his own privilege. A reminder he was human after all.
That makes sense, but I do have follow-on questions. Genuinely asking, not trying to be antagonistic.
Would you then say that gay pride is ridiculous in a nation that doesn’t have issues with hating gay people? Like, in a well run country where homophobia/transphobia is marginalized out, should gay pride be viewed the same as having Irish pride?
The argument against that in my mind would be that it’s honoring the work of the people who came before who had to deal with historical bigotry. But I feel like the counter to that would be the Irish, in that they also had to deal with systematic bigotry in this country. We’re not so far gone from “No Irish Need Apply,” and people having to change their names to hide their Irish ancestry to find jobs.
A nation will always have issues with homophobia, because even if it’s not an enshrined position, it’s something that its constituent citizens can sometimes believe in.
I live in Portland, Oregon, and I deal with transphobia all the damn time. And yet I’m explicitly protected by the law, which doesn’t mean all that much at the end of the day.
Hence, trans pride.
But there is no un-hated group. Heck, there’s still a not insignificant portion of the population who hate the Irish/Catholics still. There is no group that isn’t hated by someone.
Hell, there are a not insignificant number of people who hate white people. Does that make it okay for them to be “proud of being white” just because some people hate them for it?
I don’t disagree that there will always be people who hate gay people. But I do think there are plenty of countries though where the percentage of the population that do is low. At least as low as those who hate whites/Catholics/etc.
Have you ever been to a cultural parade, even when you’re not part of that culture? They are so fun, especially if you’re only being accepted as the culture for a day or so. Some cultures are much more family oriented too, so they’re going to understand each other and rise above most things together. I get it.
I still cringe when people still seem to hold onto some notion that America is the greatest thing ever. I’m not even talking about MAGA. Like people foolishly still believe a war mongering state like the US should forever be known as the greatest thing ever. Like legit. In their eyes, no other country has come close and no other country does anything just as good. The US is the only leader in anything in their eyes. They make it so dramatic about how much pride they have in the country when they’ve been fed propaganda all their lives. lmao
To them I say, it’s not about U.S. vs the rest of the world. It’s about us, the people, against the corrupt and the state. Like John Lennon says, “no country to die for”. It’s just about people man. Fuck the state. Fuck your borders bullshit.
It’s really cringe and almost everyone does it. Most speeches at the start of an election campaign begin this way, also for liberals. When K. Harris said “We’re America and we’re the only country, where I, a black woman ™, could ever run for office…”
Like, look around. There are women, black people, and black women in office right now around the world. And that’s coming from the more “” “” left “” “” side.
And yet yanks still say “I’m Scottish”, when their great, great, great grandmother was born in Scotland
It’s pathetic
It’s the last thing you can be proud of, if you have nothing else.
You think I should be proud more of having a hairy ass?
How can we evaluate whether you should be proud of it if you don’t even post pics?
That can at least keep you warm and shows people from far away that you’re likely an adult man. Two things a hairy ass can do that ethnicity can’t.
But ass hair has never taught me a recipe…
