Absolutely yes with the self interest, my own journey unfortunately had to begin from there, with the realization that a better world for everyone meant a better world for me. As capitalism continues to decline, it’s only going to get easier for us to appeal to people’s self interest. We just gotta build something we can point to. Doesn’t have to be huge, just any local structure we build to make life easier. It sucks that the level of consciousness here is generally so low, but it’s also just true that people are more receptive to something when they see tangible benefit from it.
I think the cynicism, like any tendency, is both learned and dependent on circumstance to continually reinforce. Like what is cynicism if not a deep, fear-based belief that the person ia not capable of enacting meaningful change, and it’s better to take actions that will be rewarded and not punished under whatever power structure they currently exist in? That tendency towards compliance-dressed-as-cleverness can be worked with, we’re not gonna get them on board immediately but there will be a stage where even the cynical calculus will favor leaving a sinking ship.
I’m not sure they’ll try to leave the sinking ship until they’re already swimming, y’know? People who learned that resistance is futile over the course of US hegemony are not going to easily unlearn it. I think it’s happening among young people because they don’t have as many memories of the US being unstoppable. In fact, for people born after 9/11, the US has rarely won.
But for people who remember the US winning the Cold War, it’s going to take a lot more to make them unlearn their cynicism.
Irving Kristol isn’t the only one? Obviously not every single Trot became a neocon, but many did, and there’s a reason for it: cynicism. Further, a Trot working for the CIA itself is actually just an extension of the same cynicism. It’s all growing from the same learned helplessness and lack of revolutionary optimism: if revolution is impossible, all you can do is get your bag.
This is not exclusive to Trots, of course. Plenty of young people with revolutionary optimism “grow up” to become cynical older adults, and that’s not because they’re chicken. They simply become convinced there’s no hope.
I don’t think neocons were ever legit. This was an attempt to infiltrate the “New York Intellectuals” and their publications, just like they did later with Ramparts Magazine
And I don’t see the cynicism in Trotsky’s writing, agree with him or not. Permanent Revolution is anything but cynical.
Show me how they’re " totally willing to fight".
We’re talking about ‘americans’ in general. They bend over like a twig.
Even if you mean their army which I think you might imply when you say “do all sorts of (war) crimes” then it’s wrong.
They also never ‘fight’.
What they call war is when they cowardly bomb defenseless brown people from a distance and let their local proxies/traitors do the dangerous stuff.
So no, coward is accurate, they don’t deserve the benefit of the doubt.
Only ridicule and loathing.
LOL
not setting foot in that banana republic.
I’m European, I’ve been to many protests and do my part.
Like plenty now all over Europe that you can see on the news.
12 year olds have more balls than you all you pussies together.
IDC if you are butthurt about ‘name calling’.
It’s simply an accurate description.
The government gives out socialism during and after military service. Free healthcare. Housing vouchers. Completely subsidized education. Career guidance.
There is a reason System of a Down asks “why do they always send the poor?” in BYOB. The poor are who join the military. They are enticed by the socialism the govt provides and whatever else the military recruiter sold them on.
As I said, rarely. They were to stupid and incompetent to realise Iran could hit them there.
They would’ve invaded Iran years ago if they knew they couldn’t fight back.
They don’t because they’re cowards.
Them being cynical or not is totally irrelevant and has zero importance.
That’s not the reason why they don’t fight.
It’s not like enlisted soldiers choose when invasions happen, they just volunteer to fight for the empire when the orders come. The higher ups, who know they’re going to die, are cowards and that’s why they avoided conflict for so long.
But plenty of people joined up to fight in Afghanistan and Iraq, fully expecting danger. That’s cynicism, not cowardice.
I understand that you hate them. I hate them too. I think it’s funny when they die. But, they aren’t cowards.
They’re too cynical, I think.
Yankees do not believe society can ever get better; they do believe they’ll get free healthcare if they do war crimes.
They’ll put their lives on the line for their own self interest because that’s the only thing they believe in.
Absolutely yes with the self interest, my own journey unfortunately had to begin from there, with the realization that a better world for everyone meant a better world for me. As capitalism continues to decline, it’s only going to get easier for us to appeal to people’s self interest. We just gotta build something we can point to. Doesn’t have to be huge, just any local structure we build to make life easier. It sucks that the level of consciousness here is generally so low, but it’s also just true that people are more receptive to something when they see tangible benefit from it.
Right, but that’s when the cynicism comes in: they do not believe a better world is possible, so they just want to get their bag.
It’s why a bunch of Trots became neocons. They decided revolution was impossible.
I think the cynicism, like any tendency, is both learned and dependent on circumstance to continually reinforce. Like what is cynicism if not a deep, fear-based belief that the person ia not capable of enacting meaningful change, and it’s better to take actions that will be rewarded and not punished under whatever power structure they currently exist in? That tendency towards compliance-dressed-as-cleverness can be worked with, we’re not gonna get them on board immediately but there will be a stage where even the cynical calculus will favor leaving a sinking ship.
I’m not sure they’ll try to leave the sinking ship until they’re already swimming, y’know? People who learned that resistance is futile over the course of US hegemony are not going to easily unlearn it. I think it’s happening among young people because they don’t have as many memories of the US being unstoppable. In fact, for people born after 9/11, the US has rarely won.
But for people who remember the US winning the Cold War, it’s going to take a lot more to make them unlearn their cynicism.
Irving Kristol was never a communist. He was never genuine. He always worked for the CIA.
Trots=neocons is not a real thing, never was. They just had a lot of infiltrators.
Irving Kristol isn’t the only one? Obviously not every single Trot became a neocon, but many did, and there’s a reason for it: cynicism. Further, a Trot working for the CIA itself is actually just an extension of the same cynicism. It’s all growing from the same learned helplessness and lack of revolutionary optimism: if revolution is impossible, all you can do is get your bag.
This is not exclusive to Trots, of course. Plenty of young people with revolutionary optimism “grow up” to become cynical older adults, and that’s not because they’re chicken. They simply become convinced there’s no hope.
My statement remains the same.
Okay, whatever.
So. Were they chicken? Because that’s the topic.
I don’t think neocons were ever legit. This was an attempt to infiltrate the “New York Intellectuals” and their publications, just like they did later with Ramparts Magazine
And I don’t see the cynicism in Trotsky’s writing, agree with him or not. Permanent Revolution is anything but cynical.
I didn’t say Trotsky himself was a cynic.
I said that Trots, and other people who formerly had revolutionary politics, became neocons out of cynicism.
Not because they’re chicken.
no, he’s right.
I used a different word that accurately describes them but that got me banned
I mean, “cynical” is the better word to use here.
They’re not cowardly, they’re totally willing to fight and die and do all sorts of crimes. They’re just hopeless and jaded and selfish.
So: cynical.
Show me how they’re " totally willing to fight".
We’re talking about ‘americans’ in general. They bend over like a twig.
Even if you mean their army which I think you might imply when you say “do all sorts of (war) crimes” then it’s wrong.
They also never ‘fight’.
What they call war is when they cowardly bomb defenseless brown people from a distance and let their local proxies/traitors do the dangerous stuff.
So no, coward is accurate, they don’t deserve the benefit of the doubt.
Only ridicule and loathing.
Come to the USA and start saying this in public. See how unwilling to fight you people are.
Name calling on the internet doesn’t male you tough, kid.
LOL
not setting foot in that banana republic.
I’m European, I’ve been to many protests and do my part.
Like plenty now all over Europe that you can see on the news.
12 year olds have more balls than you all you pussies together.
IDC if you are butthurt about ‘name calling’.
It’s simply an accurate description.
They’re willing to join up with their military and die, and they’re constantly shooting each other too.
They’re obviously an incredibly violent and vile people, they just don’t fight for the right things because they’re cynical.
The government gives out socialism during and after military service. Free healthcare. Housing vouchers. Completely subsidized education. Career guidance.
There is a reason System of a Down asks “why do they always send the poor?” in BYOB. The poor are who join the military. They are enticed by the socialism the govt provides and whatever else the military recruiter sold them on.
die from a heart attack from being fat or a car accident?
Almost none get killed in combat, because THEY DON’T DO COMBAT.
they are not cynical, they are cowards, the end
Tell that to the shitheads that Iran just smoked lol
I’m not sure how you can argue they aren’t cynical, even if you think they’re cowards. Both is also an option; disregarding cynicism is bizarre.
As I said, rarely. They were to stupid and incompetent to realise Iran could hit them there.
They would’ve invaded Iran years ago if they knew they couldn’t fight back.
They don’t because they’re cowards.
Them being cynical or not is totally irrelevant and has zero importance.
That’s not the reason why they don’t fight.
It’s not like enlisted soldiers choose when invasions happen, they just volunteer to fight for the empire when the orders come. The higher ups, who know they’re going to die, are cowards and that’s why they avoided conflict for so long.
But plenty of people joined up to fight in Afghanistan and Iraq, fully expecting danger. That’s cynicism, not cowardice.
I understand that you hate them. I hate them too. I think it’s funny when they die. But, they aren’t cowards.