ah, exactly what i missed from reddit: ableist wojak PCM nonsense. lovely.
I’m sorry I hurt the fee fees of people who want to destroy society and drag everyone into a hellish nightmare by calling them dumb.
Whats pcm?
Political Compass Memes, it was a subreddit that sucked.
Specifically because it’s absolutely infested with Nazis.
There was a short time it wasn’t, and it was pretty hilarious ngl, but you have to have that kind of humor.
Yeah, it’s a perfect example of the allegory of the Nazi bar.
I hadn’t seen this specific story, it’s very accurate from what I’ve seen over the years.
4chan, basically any online game chat room, blizzard in particular holy shit, I remember playing SC1 and WC3 online and for the most part everyone was normal, go to any Blizz game public chat now and it’s full of trump/nazi spammers. Crazy.
Something I’ve been thinking about since watching the comedian part of the Trumps rally right before he got elected the 2nd time… The jokes made me laugh, but not in a “haha he’s so right! Puerto Ricans are trash!” it was in a “wow! anyone who believes that is such an idiot!” similarly I very much enjoy edgy humor like Southpark or a smaller project like DBZ Abridged, TO ME the joke is in the ridiculousness that anyone would say/act/behave that way, but it absolutely invites in the people who unironically agree with it.
It’s unfortunate to say the least.
It’s crazy what a great example 4chan is of this. Used to be 99 dudes laughing and playing along with some weird idiot and then suddenly it’s 99 weird idiots. Really what turned me to sanitization of spaces.
Which is unfortunate, because using 2 dimensions to describe political ideology is much more informative than using just one (left VS right).
Not really, because somehow a libertarian society where you can own slaves is less “authoritarian” than a socialist society where everyone is fed, housed, because the poor capitalists don’t get the power to exploit people.
Meanwhile a primitive anarchist commune with so little development of the means of production, a person’s only options are to fill a very specific role in society or starve becomes free again.
The term “authoritarian” is not useful for describing how much agency people in a society have over their own lives.
Not really, because somehow a libertarian society where you can own slaves is less “authoritarian” than a socialist society where everyone is fed, housed, because the poor capitalists don’t get the power to exploit people.
I’ve never heard anyone argue that before, and it’s not shown on the compass itself. Do you have any evidence to back that up?
Vast government structures that encompass the lives of hundreds of millions of people can’t be put on a single page. We shouldn’t focus on political identity. We should focus on what works.
Are you saying it’s better to use one dimension to describe political ideology than 2 dimensions? Because that’s all I’m comparing. I’m not saying the political compass is perfect, I’m saying it’s better than “left VS right.”
I’m saying human systems and the ideas surrounding them can’t be quantified by a single graph.
Thanks. And while we’re at it: what’s wojak?
The drawn white dude.
Very first reaction I had and thankful I wasn’t the only one…
It’s not all or nothing, another way to think of it is:
How bad do things have to get for there to be an actual shift to making things better?
I would love to make things better one step at a time, I think our system is a great starting point.
But I ask myself the above question everytime things seem to be headed downward.
Events like Luigi is what I mean by things getting bad enough for something to push back.
Why do you think the shift will be towards something better, and not towards something worse?
How bad do things have to get for there to be an actual shift to making things better?
That is kind of inherent in the question. If things get worse then they aren’t getting better yet.
Things are getting worse. I’m not at all an accelerationist, but I think it goes without saying that things are getting worse and will continue to do so.
Maybe I’m an optimist, but I do think things will get better eventually, and it seems like a good question what that would look like.
" It takes a strong effort on the part of each American Indian not to become Europeanized. The strength for this effort can only come from the traditional ways, the traditional values that our elders retain. It must come from the hoop, the four directions, the relations: it cannot come from the pages of a book or a thousand books. No European can ever teach a Lakota to be Lakota, a Hopi to be Hopi. A master’s degree in “Indian Studies” or in “education” or in anything else cannot make a person into a human being or provide knowledge into the traditional ways. It can only make you into a mental European, an outsider.
I should be clear about something here, because there seems to be some confusion about it. When I speak of Europeans or mental Europeans, I’m not allowing for false distinctions. I’m not saying that on the one hand there are the by-products of a few thousand years of genocidal, reactionary European intellectual development which is bad; and on the other hand there is some new revolutionary intellectual development which is good. I’m referring here to the so-called theories of Marxism and anarchism and “leftism” in general. I don’t believe these theories can be separated from the rest of the European intellectual tradition. It’s really just the same old song.
The process began much earlier. Newton, for example, “revolutionized” physics and the so-called natural science by reducing the physical universe to a linear mathematical equation.
Descartes did the same thing with culture. John Locke did it with politics, and Adam Smith did it with economics. Each one of these “thinkers” took a piece of the spirituality of human existence and converted it into a code, an abstraction. They picked up where Christianity ended: they “secularized” Christian religion, as the “scholars” like to say — and in doing so they made Europe more able and ready to act as an expansionist culture. Each of these intellectual revolutions served to abstract the European mentality even further, to remove the wonderful complexity and spirituality from the universe and replace it with a logical sequence: one, two, three. Answer!.
This is what has come to be termed “efficiency” in the European mind. Whatever is mechanical is perfect; whatever seems to work at the moment — that is, proves the mechanical model to be the right one — is considered correct, even when it is clearly untrue. This is why “truth” changes so fast in the European mind; the answers which result from such a process are only stopgaps, only temporary, and must be continuously discarded in favor of new stopgaps which support the mechanical models and keep them (the models) alive.
Hegel and Marx were heirs to the thinking of Newton, Descartes, Locke and Smith. Hegel finished the process of secularizing theology — and that is put in his own terms — he secularized the religious thinking through which Europe understood the universe. Then Marx put Hegel’s philosophy in terms of “materialism,” which is to say that Marx despiritualized Hegel’s work altogether. Again, this is in Marx’ own terms. And this is now seen as the future revolutionary potential of Europe. Europeans may see this as revolutionary, But American Indians see it simply as still more of that same old European conflict between being and gaining. The intellectual roots of a new Marxist form of European imperialism lie in Marx’ — and his followers’ — links to the tradition of Newton, Hegel, and the others.
Being is a spiritual proposition. Gaining is a material act. Traditionally, American Indians have always attempted to be the best people they could. Part of that spiritual process was and is to give away wealth, to discard wealth in order not to gain. Material gain is an indicator of false status among traditional people, while it is “proof that the system works” to Europeans. Clearly, there are two completely opposing views at issue here, and Marxism is very far over to the other side from the American Indian view. But lets look at a major implication of this; it is not merely an intellectual debate.
The European materialist tradition of despiritualizing the universe is very similar to the mental process which goes into dehumanizing another person. And who seems most expert at dehumanizing other people? And why? Soldiers who have seen a lot of combat learn to do this to the enemy before going back into combat. Murderers do it before going out to commit murder. Nazi SS guards did it to concentration camp inmates. Cops do it. Corporation leaders do it to the workers they send into uranium mines and steel mills. Politicians do it to everyone in sight. And what the process has in common for each group doing the dehumanizing is that it makes it all right to kill and otherwise destroy other people. One of the Christian commandments says, “Thou shalt not kill,” at least not humans, so the trick is to mentally convert the victims into nonhumans. Then you can proclaim violation of your own commandment as a virtue.
In terms of the despiritualization of the universe, the mental process works so that it become virtuous to destroy the planet. Terms like progress and development are used as cover words here, the way victory and freedom are used to justify butchery in the dehumanization process. For example, a real-estate speculator may refer to “developing” a parcel of ground by opening a gravel quarry; development here means total, permanent destruction, with the earth itself removed. But European logic has gained a few tons of gravel with which more land can be “developed” through the construction of road beds. Ultimately, the whole universe is open — in the European view — to this sort of insanity.
Most important here, perhaps, is the fact that Europeans feel no sense of loss in this. After all, their philosophers have despiritualized reality, so there is no satisfaction (for them) to be gained in simply observing the wonder of a mountain or a lake or a people in being. No, satisfaction is measured in terms of gaining material. So the mountain becomes gravel, and the lake becomes coolant for a factory, and the people are rounded up for processing through the indoctrination mills Europeans like to call schools.
But each new piece of that “progress” ups the ante out in the real world. Take fuel for the industrial machine as an example. Little more than two centuries ago, nearly everyone used wood — a replenishable, natural item — as fuel for the very human needs of cooking and staying warm. Along came the Industrial Revolution and coal became the dominant fuel, as production became the social imperative for Europe. Pollution began to become a problem in the cities, and the earth was ripped open to provide coal whereas wood had simply been gathered or harvested at no great expense to the environment. Later, oil became the major fuel, as the technology of production was perfected through a series of scientific “revolutions.” Pollution increased dramatically, and nobody yet knows what the environmental costs of pumping all that oil out of the ground will really be in the long run. Now there’s an “energy crisis,” and uranium is becoming the dominant fuel.
Capitalists, at least, can be relied upon to develop uranium as fuel only at the rate at which they can show a good profit. That’s their ethic, and maybe that will buy some time. Marxists, on the other hand, can be relied upon to develop uranium fuel as rapidly as possible simply because it’s the most “efficient” production fuel available. That’s their ethic, and I fail to see where it’s preferable. Like I said, Marxism is right smack in the middle of the European tradition. It’s the same old song."
- Russel Means of the Lakota people (full speech)
political compass memesThe difference is, in the bottom left we’ve been aware the Empire is receding and are already creating new structures in the cracks left behind
The other three quadrants are just doing the same old shit
The bottom left will also at least get anarchy briefly after any collapse.
Well, an opportunity for it.
Anarchism means “no rulers” not “no rules”. Smaller communities tend to organize cooperatively by nature, but we have to consciously organize so seizure of power is preventable.
Anarchism means “no rulers” not “no rules”.
And if the government collapsed, there would be a brief period where there are no recognized rulers. 🤦♂️
I think there are plenty of people of all political ideologies who don’t fall into this intellectual trap. But I took this as criticism of a very real breed of political slacktivist who thinks that their preferred society is so natural or inevitable that it will just happen automatically whenever the current rulers fuck up badly enough.
But this is just fairy tale thinking. New societal structures are built from the bottom up and only replace the existing ones when a state of incredible weakness for one structure coexists with a state of strength for the new structure.
So I kind of agree but there are definitely lib-left people who engage in this type of thinking. It seems like insurrectionary anarchists largely fit in that category, but someone who knows more about their ideology can correct me if I got it wrong.
a very real breed of political slacktivist who thinks that their preferred society is so natural or inevitable that it will just happen automatically whenever the current rulers fuck up badly enough.
Excellent description.
I consider myself one ;) post-left anarchism in general
We’re not waiting around for a revolution, we’re of a mind to DIY where we can. At least, that’s the idea. Individual actions may vary.
Ah gotcha well if you are genuinely building new structures then you are not the type I’m talking about, so it’s possible my above statement was a mischaracterization. I’ve just run into some people whose plan for replacing the state/capitalism is basically:
Set fire to shit
???
ProfitAnarchist utopiaAnd I just don’t think that has any chance of working whatsoever.
All would say the same thing there. Look at the auth right we have today and the rhetoric of ‘the decadent decay of society and the need to rebuild traditional structures…’
They can say the same, but who’s structures would you rather be a part of, given the choice? Horizontally-organized ones that function cooperatively, or the same crap you’ve got right now?
All we gotta do is keep showing people that better ways exist and work.
A lot of people actually like authoritarianism. These people are known as morons.
I don’t argue with the notion that virtually anything is better than we have now. I’d probably fall somewhere leftish but pretty neutral in the auth/lib scale. Basically to say having central authority enough to get things like big science, public infra, and foundational enforcement to the extent of ensuring people play by the agreed rules, but not the elite group dictation of them we have now. The idea of the self moderating and communal policing commune sounds nice, but unrealistic if you have anyone not following that path in or near the society.
None of the other three have the concept of prefiguration
So I went looking for how you might define the term outside of a pre-ordained order of society and found it somewhat comical that the M/W dictionary’s first example came from the playbook of the poster child for fascism…
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/prefiguration
This chilling prefiguration of Hitler’s Final Solution is unmistakable, and Heidegger never explained, let alone apologized for, such horrendous statements. —Gregory Fried, Foreign Affairs, 17 Oct. 2014
That’s doesn’t seem to be the same concept as the anarchist political praxis
Didn’t the collective Right build Project 2025? What exactly did the LibLeft build?
When people are desperate they turn to a strongman. Every. Time.
Time to get Hari Seldon and prepare a foundation.
Which is a great analogy cause Hari fully lived and died in the collapsing empire. His life never improved due to faster collapse.
Accelerationism is cringe. Do you want to change society? Start doing Prefiguration.
Agreed but the problem with this is that it requires people to be ok with the idea that they are building something that they likely won’t see. It’s a difficult concept for most people to grapple with.
The reason why prefiguration works is because the same praxis also helps to improve one’s life in the here and now.
If a house is 4 million dollars and you work as an uber driver or cashier you may have a different opinion that everything is good. All this current world order has done is monetize everything with debt, a big wall of debt that bids up the price of inelastic goods, as the rich borrow as much as possible to write off their cheap debt using their inflated collateral while never liquidating a penny of their assets.
Then when their mansion burns down due to building in a risky area or the bank that lends all this debt overextends then the government bails them out, as peoples paychecks are inflated away and they are denied pay raises due to the bad economy.
But I’m one of these smooth brains.
Are ride-hail drivers better off when cars become astronomically more expensive and rare, and are cashiers better off when stores are closing?
Revolution is for those who think they have nothing to lose - or think that they cannot lose. Someone with a “bad” job is ironically still much further from supporting widespread upheaval than a mansion-dweller who thinks they’re untouchable.
If you want society to collapse then yes you are a smooth brain.
Things can always be worse. And they wont only get worse for you, so if you are ok dragging everyone down into hell with you, you aren’t just dumb, you are evil.
Youre increasing asset holders, mainly the rich, drastically while taking it from everyone else. Things are getting signifigantly worse as housing prices rise, birth rates fall, and populism inevitably increases.
We treat future promises of money, mainly debt, the same as we value existing money. Every loan is new money supply, which favors the rich who hold collateral, and who benefit the most from the cantillon effect. They also generally benefit the most from bailouts, which is just another symptom of loose money.
Only the top right 3 depend on collapsing society.
I suspect that it’s a mental error to imagine that there’s one ideal ideology to start with.
For example, I think the founding fathers of America envisioned that the federal government would be smaller than the state governments. It’s not completely insane to imagine supporting true libertarians for a federal government and a progressive left wing party for a state government.
But people aren’t that mentally flexible. If they vote right wing for federal government, they will never vote left wing for state government. And so, despite the fact that capitalism can solve certain problems quite efficiently, the fact that it’s utterly unsuited to solve our most common problems like making sure people have basic essentials means that libertarianism is a bit of a dead end, unless people can actually learn to think flexibly.
This is one of the basic reasons why Political Compass Memes is such a bad idea. It encourages people to lock in their political identity, rather than remain flexible, and centrism isn’t the answer, either. We should be trying to use the right tool for the right job.
Prior to the trump era I voted libertarian federal, dem/left for state govt for this reason. The problem with parties at the moment is there’s not just economic policy tied up into them but cultural and societal aspects that have to be weighed.
This is one of the basic reasons why Political Compass Memes is such a bad idea.
No kidding. Not only do people fall on different parts of that two dimensional map depending on context (e.g. different positions on how much government support there should be for the arts versus for the sciences, how much government should regulate guns versus automobiles, etc.), but elevating these two axes above all the other unseen dimensions (ideological purity versus pragmatic compromise or versus consensus seeking, at what point process should yield to substance, the extent to which our institutions should have inertia that resists change, etc.), which causes people to oversimplify political issues into just those two dimensions.
There are many dimensions, and each problem may call for a different solution that would fall into a different place in any given dimension than the solution to another problem.
What’s up with this centrist nonsense? It’s a good thing to want to change the existing power structures actually.
Personally im a Anarcho-Syndicalist so imo the system can be used. We can use economic sabotage, general strikes, and eventually take over the economy rather than burning it all down.
anarchy-syndicalist have always supported revolution and the complete overthrown of hierarchies its never been about slow incremental change within existing power structures.
This is a false dichotomy. You have to have a viable counter structure already built otherwise you are just making shit worse and hoping fascists don’t take over.
Letting shit just collapse on purpose also will just foster resentment in like 2/3rds of the population toward people who let it happen or encouraged it to happen. Which seems to be MLs and leftwing foreign policy activists, at least here on Lemmy. I’m not going to join hands with someone that played an active or passive role in potentially ruining my life and my loved one’s lives even if they’re ideologically very similar otherwise.
Spite becomes more powerful than a desire for positive change in large groups of angry people.
Ok that was just poorly worded, what I meant to say is that theres no point in burning it all down without a plan. The seeds of revolution are planted before it begins.
Such things are possible without the collapse of society.
Ok but we’ve only been successful at collapsing society so far, not in the reform department
I only see mockery of accelerationists, which I broadly support. Its 10 times easier to reform an existing government that to destroy and build a good one from scratch.
While I agree in theory, it assumes the existing system has rational or somewhat rational actors.
If your system is full of counter productive individuals, it might be easier to start fresh.
This works better with groups and companies, entire countries, not so much.
To be fair, the only reason I sound like an accelerationist, is because the building is clearly on fire right now and I’m presuming its structural at this point. So yeah, while I wish it didn’t get to this point, it feels likely that we will have to rebuild things from the ground up.
life hack: begin building new social structures before the current ones collapse
Accelerationists HATE him for this one weird trick, click to read more
You sound like an accelerationist because you think things are unsalvageable? Go figure.
Not when the existing government is built to concentrate and protect current property relations. Sure have parallel structures built to replace what exists but don’t reform, revolt.
This isn’t happening
Accelerationism is happening towards fascism. This would be a different story if socialism was on the rise with parallel structures in place to rescue us during the collapse
Literally this is not happening nor will happen. Not even close, it blows my mind other leftists think fascism provides opportunity. “Things are going to be great after this is all said and done!” As we’re rounded up and deported to El Salvador
The way to fight fascism is by attacking the system that holds it up not recreating its parent.
It’s literally not built to do that. The government has been hijacked by private interests.
What? Goverment has always existed to protect property rights of the ruling class that’s basic. Anything else it does that appear to do anything else are either really about their real goal or hard fought bargains meant to prevent rebellion that always are viewed as temporary,
Goverment has always existed to protect property rights of the ruling class
Edgy teenager take.
Modern western governments were created with the intent of replacing the old ruling classes with a democratically elected government. Pay attention during history class.
I study actual history and read actual history books that critically examine history through various lens from Marxist, de-colonial and other authors and that does not line up with the middle school propaganda you were feed sorry. Democracy at least at first for only property owning white men because the merchants and rich capitalists got rich and powerful enough that the aristocracy was an enemy of theirs and no longer useful to hold real power. These voting rights slowly expanded in order to placate rebellious populations or gain supporters when necessary first all white men, then women on and on while never forgetting and always co-opting “democracy” to maintain their power.
actual history
Lol
Difficulty of reform aside, the pain and suffering that will come from societal collapse will be immense. The chance of successfully building a better system out of the crumbled remains is low. I don’t think it’s a great aspiration.
some will die, that is a sacrifice.
Good people dying is bad, always! Even if it’s worth it in the end, we should try to find a way to save lives instead!
the way to save lives is to change the society that harms billions not prop it up because you lack the imagination to think of something better.
I agree that society is currently immensely flawed and should be changed, I just want minimal deaths on the way. If we can save lives, we should! Some deaths are necessary for change though.
Good people are dying now though. When is the cost of drastic change worth the cost of the status quo?
You first
Thank you for your wisdom, Lord Farquaad.
but where are the parallel structures
immediately attacked by the ruling elite when it starts to form
Not if it means creating a hellscape and rolling the dice hoping it works out as you let a fascist win an election.
I’m really glad I’m in the lower left because that’s my favorite of the faces.
It’s from all that soy milk