• Grandwolf319@sh.itjust.works
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    5 days ago

    It’s not all or nothing, another way to think of it is:

    How bad do things have to get for there to be an actual shift to making things better?

    I would love to make things better one step at a time, I think our system is a great starting point.

    But I ask myself the above question everytime things seem to be headed downward.

    Events like Luigi is what I mean by things getting bad enough for something to push back.

  • in4apenny@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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    5 days ago

    " It takes a strong effort on the part of each American Indian not to become Europeanized. The strength for this effort can only come from the traditional ways, the traditional values that our elders retain. It must come from the hoop, the four directions, the relations: it cannot come from the pages of a book or a thousand books. No European can ever teach a Lakota to be Lakota, a Hopi to be Hopi. A master’s degree in “Indian Studies” or in “education” or in anything else cannot make a person into a human being or provide knowledge into the traditional ways. It can only make you into a mental European, an outsider.

    I should be clear about something here, because there seems to be some confusion about it. When I speak of Europeans or mental Europeans, I’m not allowing for false distinctions. I’m not saying that on the one hand there are the by-products of a few thousand years of genocidal, reactionary European intellectual development which is bad; and on the other hand there is some new revolutionary intellectual development which is good. I’m referring here to the so-called theories of Marxism and anarchism and “leftism” in general. I don’t believe these theories can be separated from the rest of the European intellectual tradition. It’s really just the same old song.

    The process began much earlier. Newton, for example, “revolutionized” physics and the so-called natural science by reducing the physical universe to a linear mathematical equation.

    Descartes did the same thing with culture. John Locke did it with politics, and Adam Smith did it with economics. Each one of these “thinkers” took a piece of the spirituality of human existence and converted it into a code, an abstraction. They picked up where Christianity ended: they “secularized” Christian religion, as the “scholars” like to say — and in doing so they made Europe more able and ready to act as an expansionist culture. Each of these intellectual revolutions served to abstract the European mentality even further, to remove the wonderful complexity and spirituality from the universe and replace it with a logical sequence: one, two, three. Answer!.

    This is what has come to be termed “efficiency” in the European mind. Whatever is mechanical is perfect; whatever seems to work at the moment — that is, proves the mechanical model to be the right one — is considered correct, even when it is clearly untrue. This is why “truth” changes so fast in the European mind; the answers which result from such a process are only stopgaps, only temporary, and must be continuously discarded in favor of new stopgaps which support the mechanical models and keep them (the models) alive.

    Hegel and Marx were heirs to the thinking of Newton, Descartes, Locke and Smith. Hegel finished the process of secularizing theology — and that is put in his own terms — he secularized the religious thinking through which Europe understood the universe. Then Marx put Hegel’s philosophy in terms of “materialism,” which is to say that Marx despiritualized Hegel’s work altogether. Again, this is in Marx’ own terms. And this is now seen as the future revolutionary potential of Europe. Europeans may see this as revolutionary, But American Indians see it simply as still more of that same old European conflict between being and gaining. The intellectual roots of a new Marxist form of European imperialism lie in Marx’ — and his followers’ — links to the tradition of Newton, Hegel, and the others.

    Being is a spiritual proposition. Gaining is a material act. Traditionally, American Indians have always attempted to be the best people they could. Part of that spiritual process was and is to give away wealth, to discard wealth in order not to gain. Material gain is an indicator of false status among traditional people, while it is “proof that the system works” to Europeans. Clearly, there are two completely opposing views at issue here, and Marxism is very far over to the other side from the American Indian view. But lets look at a major implication of this; it is not merely an intellectual debate.

    The European materialist tradition of despiritualizing the universe is very similar to the mental process which goes into dehumanizing another person. And who seems most expert at dehumanizing other people? And why? Soldiers who have seen a lot of combat learn to do this to the enemy before going back into combat. Murderers do it before going out to commit murder. Nazi SS guards did it to concentration camp inmates. Cops do it. Corporation leaders do it to the workers they send into uranium mines and steel mills. Politicians do it to everyone in sight. And what the process has in common for each group doing the dehumanizing is that it makes it all right to kill and otherwise destroy other people. One of the Christian commandments says, “Thou shalt not kill,” at least not humans, so the trick is to mentally convert the victims into nonhumans. Then you can proclaim violation of your own commandment as a virtue.

    In terms of the despiritualization of the universe, the mental process works so that it become virtuous to destroy the planet. Terms like progress and development are used as cover words here, the way victory and freedom are used to justify butchery in the dehumanization process. For example, a real-estate speculator may refer to “developing” a parcel of ground by opening a gravel quarry; development here means total, permanent destruction, with the earth itself removed. But European logic has gained a few tons of gravel with which more land can be “developed” through the construction of road beds. Ultimately, the whole universe is open — in the European view — to this sort of insanity.

    Most important here, perhaps, is the fact that Europeans feel no sense of loss in this. After all, their philosophers have despiritualized reality, so there is no satisfaction (for them) to be gained in simply observing the wonder of a mountain or a lake or a people in being. No, satisfaction is measured in terms of gaining material. So the mountain becomes gravel, and the lake becomes coolant for a factory, and the people are rounded up for processing through the indoctrination mills Europeans like to call schools.

    But each new piece of that “progress” ups the ante out in the real world. Take fuel for the industrial machine as an example. Little more than two centuries ago, nearly everyone used wood — a replenishable, natural item — as fuel for the very human needs of cooking and staying warm. Along came the Industrial Revolution and coal became the dominant fuel, as production became the social imperative for Europe. Pollution began to become a problem in the cities, and the earth was ripped open to provide coal whereas wood had simply been gathered or harvested at no great expense to the environment. Later, oil became the major fuel, as the technology of production was perfected through a series of scientific “revolutions.” Pollution increased dramatically, and nobody yet knows what the environmental costs of pumping all that oil out of the ground will really be in the long run. Now there’s an “energy crisis,” and uranium is becoming the dominant fuel.

    Capitalists, at least, can be relied upon to develop uranium as fuel only at the rate at which they can show a good profit. That’s their ethic, and maybe that will buy some time. Marxists, on the other hand, can be relied upon to develop uranium fuel as rapidly as possible simply because it’s the most “efficient” production fuel available. That’s their ethic, and I fail to see where it’s preferable. Like I said, Marxism is right smack in the middle of the European tradition. It’s the same old song."

  • vvilld@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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    5 days ago

    Anarchists (lib left) aren’t typically waiting for society to collapse. We typically focus on building the world we want to see now in order to make the collapsing society unnecessary to provide out material needs. You know, the whole mutual aide and community organizing bit.

        • CalipherJones@lemmy.world
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          5 days ago

          “Mutual aid is an organizational model where voluntary, collaborative exchanges of resources and services for common benefit take place amongst community members to overcome social, economic, and political barriers to meeting common needs.”

          Legal systems are far more effective at guiding human behavior than hoping for the voluntary good will of people’s hearts.

          • vvilld@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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            5 days ago

            So your argument is that the only way to get people to live together is under the constant threat of violence from the state?

            • tweeks@feddit.nl
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              5 days ago

              I like the idea of anarchism, but I see it as more of an ideal world view than an actual stable reality.

              To support this, every group member of every group must almost unanimously support the concept. When resources or safety in an area become scarce, it’s easy for some groups to evolve back into another power structure to take care of their own people.

              It’s really difficult for me to imagine everybody on this planet getting along with this. But I’m certainly interested in other viewpoints.

              • Jumpingspiderman@lemmy.world
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                5 days ago

                Honestly ALL systems are more of an ideal world than a stable reality. So singling out anarchism because it too is idealistic isn’t really much of an argument against it.

            • CalipherJones@lemmy.world
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              5 days ago

              I’d rather live under a state with a secure monopoly on violence than in a stateless chaos of violence. Anarchy isn’t a form of government. It’s simply the period before a group uses violence to establish itself as the government.

              Let me ask you, would you rather deal with a cop or a warlord?

              • Communist@lemmy.frozeninferno.xyz
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                5 days ago

                There’s the term “anarchy” describing a state of chaos, and there’s the philosophical political term anarchism, which is completely separate.

                You’re assuming the chaos is what anarchist philosophers want, which is incorrect.

                Authority would be handled democratically or rotationally in an anarchist society. As an example, the police could be voted into place at a meeting that occurs every saturday where anyone who wants can attend to decide what the people in a given region do.

                • CalipherJones@lemmy.world
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                  5 days ago

                  Chaos is a byproduct of human nature. Central authority and law is meant to kept that chaos in check.

                  Given your example, what would happen if two groups in the same town both elected their own police force with wildly different directives?

                  What happens when you give those cops the means to enforce their directives and they decide to enact their own rules?

                  How would you even get them to do their job without a centrally backed currency?

              • vvilld@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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                5 days ago

                You do not understand anarchism in the slightest. You are imagining some Hobbsian hellscape out of a disaster movie, which is completely counter to human nature.

                • CalipherJones@lemmy.world
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                  5 days ago

                  This is the definition I am basing my perspective on.

                  “the organization of society on the basis of voluntary cooperation, without political institutions or hierarchical government; anarchism.”

                  Also human nature has created plenty of hellscapes in the past. Don’t think it can’t happen again.

  • Ilixtze@lemm.ee
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    6 days ago

    “Why is 99% of the population such smooth brained extremists?” ; said Nero as he kept on fiddling and turning up the heat

    Think of poor lil, Nero he just wants to play his fiddle in peace.

    • Grandwolf319@sh.itjust.works
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      5 days ago

      Which is a great analogy cause Hari fully lived and died in the collapsing empire. His life never improved due to faster collapse.

  • turnip@lemm.ee
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    6 days ago

    If a house is 4 million dollars and you work as an uber driver or cashier you may have a different opinion that everything is good. All this current world order has done is monetize everything with debt, a big wall of debt that bids up the price of inelastic goods, as the rich borrow as much as possible to write off their cheap debt using their inflated collateral while never liquidating a penny of their assets.

    Then when their mansion burns down due to building in a risky area or the bank that lends all this debt overextends then the government bails them out, as peoples paychecks are inflated away and they are denied pay raises due to the bad economy.

    But I’m one of these smooth brains.

    • LaserRunRaccoon@lemmy.ca
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      5 days ago

      Are ride-hail drivers better off when cars become astronomically more expensive and rare, and are cashiers better off when stores are closing?

      Revolution is for those who think they have nothing to lose - or think that they cannot lose. Someone with a “bad” job is ironically still much further from supporting widespread upheaval than a mansion-dweller who thinks they’re untouchable.

    • HalfSalesman@lemm.ee
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      5 days ago

      If you want society to collapse then yes you are a smooth brain.

      Things can always be worse. And they wont only get worse for you, so if you are ok dragging everyone down into hell with you, you aren’t just dumb, you are evil.

    • HalfSalesman@lemm.ee
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      5 days ago

      I’m sorry I hurt the fee fees of people who want to destroy society and drag everyone into a hellish nightmare by calling them dumb.

              • Jakeroxs@sh.itjust.works
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                6 days ago

                I hadn’t seen this specific story, it’s very accurate from what I’ve seen over the years.

                4chan, basically any online game chat room, blizzard in particular holy shit, I remember playing SC1 and WC3 online and for the most part everyone was normal, go to any Blizz game public chat now and it’s full of trump/nazi spammers. Crazy.

                Something I’ve been thinking about since watching the comedian part of the Trumps rally right before he got elected the 2nd time… The jokes made me laugh, but not in a “haha he’s so right! Puerto Ricans are trash!” it was in a “wow! anyone who believes that is such an idiot!” similarly I very much enjoy edgy humor like Southpark or a smaller project like DBZ Abridged, TO ME the joke is in the ridiculousness that anyone would say/act/behave that way, but it absolutely invites in the people who unironically agree with it.

                It’s unfortunate to say the least.

                • Dr. Moose@lemmy.world
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                  5 days ago

                  It’s crazy what a great example 4chan is of this. Used to be 99 dudes laughing and playing along with some weird idiot and then suddenly it’s 99 weird idiots. Really what turned me to sanitization of spaces.

          • Ajen@sh.itjust.works
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            6 days ago

            Which is unfortunate, because using 2 dimensions to describe political ideology is much more informative than using just one (left VS right).

            • CalipherJones@lemmy.world
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              5 days ago

              Vast government structures that encompass the lives of hundreds of millions of people can’t be put on a single page. We shouldn’t focus on political identity. We should focus on what works.

              • Ajen@sh.itjust.works
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                5 days ago

                Are you saying it’s better to use one dimension to describe political ideology than 2 dimensions? Because that’s all I’m comparing. I’m not saying the political compass is perfect, I’m saying it’s better than “left VS right.”

            • Corn@lemmy.ml
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              5 days ago

              Not really, because somehow a libertarian society where you can own slaves is less “authoritarian” than a socialist society where everyone is fed, housed, because the poor capitalists don’t get the power to exploit people.

              Meanwhile a primitive anarchist commune with so little development of the means of production, a person’s only options are to fill a very specific role in society or starve becomes free again.

              The term “authoritarian” is not useful for describing how much agency people in a society have over their own lives.

              • Ajen@sh.itjust.works
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                5 days ago

                Not really, because somehow a libertarian society where you can own slaves is less “authoritarian” than a socialist society where everyone is fed, housed, because the poor capitalists don’t get the power to exploit people.

                I’ve never heard anyone argue that before, and it’s not shown on the compass itself. Do you have any evidence to back that up?

    • Dalkor@lemmy.world
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      6 days ago

      Agreed but the problem with this is that it requires people to be ok with the idea that they are building something that they likely won’t see. It’s a difficult concept for most people to grapple with.

      • db0@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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        6 days ago

        The reason why prefiguration works is because the same praxis also helps to improve one’s life in the here and now.