The revived No JS Club celebrates websites that don’t use Javascript, the powerful but sometimes overused code that’s been bloating the web and crashing tabs since 1995. The No CSS Club goes a step further and forbids even a scrap of styling beyond the browser defaults. And there is even the No HTML Club, where you’re not even allowed to use HTML. Plain text websites!

The modern web is the pure incarnation of evil. When Satan has a 1v1 with his manager, he confers with the modern web. If Satan is Sauron, then the modern web is Melkor [1]. Every horror that you can imagine is because of the modern web. Modern web is not an existential risk (X-risk), but is an astronomic suffering risk (S-risk) [2]. It is the duty of each and every man, woman, and child to revolt against it. If you’re not working on returning civilization to ooga-booga, you’re a bad person.

A compromise with the clubs is called for. A hypertext brutalism that uses the raw materials of the web to functional, honest ends while allowing web technologies to support clarity, legibility and accessibility. Compare this notion to the web brutalism of recent times, which started off in similar vein but soon became a self-subverting aesthetic: sites using 2.4MB frameworks to add text-shadow: 40px 40px 0px hotpink to 400kb Helvetica webfonts that were already on your computer.

I also like the idea of implementing “hypotext” as an inversion of hypertext. This would somehow avoid the failure modes of extending the structure of text by failing in other ways that are more fun. But I’m in two minds about whether that would be just a toy (e.g. references banished to metadata, i.e. footnotes are the hypertext) or something more conceptual that uses references to collapse the structure of text rather than extend it (e.g. links are includes and going near them spaghettifies your brain). The term is already in use in a structuralist sense, which is to say there are 2 million words of French I have to read first if I want to get away with any of this.

Republished Under Creative Commons Terms. Boing Boing Original Article.

  • MonkderVierte@lemmy.zipEnglish
    0·
    10 天前

    No HTML should rather do all-Commonmark instead, imo. Background color and text width & stuff should not be your (the creators) business but my (the users) business only. But some basic styling is nice.

    • gandalf_der_12te@discuss.tchncs.deEnglish
      0·
      10 天前

      i guess Commonmark is the same thing as Markdown?

      in that case, this is why i love the fediverse (especially lemmy) so much: comments and posts are simple markdown.

      it comes quite close to the principle of distributing content in the way of markdown articles.

  • Matriks404@lemmy.worldEnglish
    0·
    10 天前

    What we need is a subset of modern web, without any bloat, especially JS frameworks.

    A lot of websites can be static HTML + CSS.

    • Vinstaal0@feddit.nlEnglish
      0·
      10 天前

      A lot of websites can be static HTML + CSS.

      Yeah they can, I can understand you might want to use something like php to not need to edit the footers and headers every page if you ever change them, but still.

      I also like how some websites like Amazon.com refuse to add a payment platform which is more than a credit card checkout. Especially because their EU sites do have payment platforms with more options to pay. So then you have an over complicated site already with a lot of bloat and some amount of your consumers can’t even pay.

  • Kairos@lemmy.todayEnglish
    0·
    11 天前

    I wish web browsers had markdown support. At least for basics like links, headers, bold, etc.

    • Ledivin@lemmy.worldEnglish
      0·
      11 天前

      I think everyone can agree the no-html club is insane. Why not just a reduced version, so you can actually do stuff like links?

      • mesa@piefed.socialEnglish
        0·
        11 天前

        I think because in 10 or so years, there might be a new standard that breaks the site again. Or makes it unusable.

        TXT walkthroughs are still used for a reason. Its much harder to break txt files over decades.

        All that is assuming someone still wants to read your txt but that is besides the point.

        • Ledivin@lemmy.worldEnglish
          0·
          11 天前

          Anyone using basic HTML elements from the first HTML spec would still be supported in 99+% of cases today. HTML has added lots, and removed very, very, very little.

          • mesa@piefed.socialEnglish
            0·
            11 天前

            Frames still break on some sites. center is still being joked about. Once in a while you still see plaintext on some very old sites.

            And as a dev of over 20 years, I can say for a fact that deprecations will occur. And its all code cruft for modern browsers to navigate. Its easier to let them die. And in 10+ years the txt docs will still work. Mostly. Maybe. :D Unicode emojis make it even more confusing to the conversion.

            https://www.w3docs.com/learn-html/deprecated-html-tags.html

            If they are useful, people will still use them. We can have both. Modern Browsers that are closer to full scale OSes AND tiny little txt sites that give users info on the given topic.

            • axEl7fB5@lemmy.cafeEnglish
              0·
              11 天前

              even if the website uses deprecated elements, it wont really break. modern browsers will still have compatibility with the old ass tags

              • mesa@piefed.socialEnglish
                0·
                11 天前

                blink and center dont work on most modern sites. iframes in particular break now. Give it another 10 years. Hell React will break if you dont keep up with the updates every 6ish months. Or so it feels.

                We can have both. Sites that marvel and little txt sites.

        • ParadoxSeahorse@lemmy.worldEnglish
          0·
          10 天前

          This. Text files are great for so many reasons! Hard to construct something malicious, too, so pretty great for uploads.

      • Kairos@lemmy.todayEnglish
        0·
        11 天前

        everyone

        I am someone and I don’t agree. You can say the same thing about no JS folks.

        • frezik@lemmy.blahaj.zoneEnglish
          0·
          11 天前

          JS does a lot of crap that didn’t need doing in the first place. It can be used in a way that improves performance and user experience, but what’s out there is so far from that.

          HTML could maybe be replaced by a specific form of Markdown (one with a real spec), but meh, whatever. Gemini did that, but its limitations are a little too much.

      • mesa@piefed.socialEnglish
        0·
        11 天前

        Plus markdown is kinda loosy goosy when it comes to the “standard”. Sites like Github and wikipedia have slightly different specs. And each site has a different scheme to hook into it.

        Its much easier to set up static site generators or hook into something that can translate. But maybe that will change.

        I personally would like other languages in the browser. Native python the browser would be nice for example.

        • jjjalljs@ttrpg.networkEnglish
          0·
          11 天前

          A world there python ran in the browser instead of javacript would probably be a whole lot better.

        • frezik@lemmy.blahaj.zoneEnglish
          0·
          11 天前

          You want to do what Gemini did. Take Markdown, add some specific features to make up for some blind spots in the original, formalize it, and give your version a specific name.

      • cygnus@lemmy.caEnglish
        0·
        11 天前

        That’s almost worse. I don’t want to install 5000 NPM packages to generate 2 basic-ass pages.

  • AmidFuror@fedia.io
    0·
    11 天前

    I am in the “whistling into the phone handset on a dialup connection is the purest form of online communication” club.

  • Absaroka@lemmy.worldEnglish
    0·
    11 天前

    I do wonder if we’re going to see some websites popping up that kind of hit the reset button on social media and go back to smaller communities of folks with something in common.

    I kind of miss the days of actually having online conversations with folks you know are real people (not bots), that aren’t trying to be an influencer, or get famous, or some how many money off your interactions.

      • I Cast Fist@programming.devEnglish
        0·
        10 天前

        The main downside is that you need a specific browser, or an extension for your average browser, to load gemini sites.

        • frezik@lemmy.blahaj.zoneEnglish
          0·
          10 天前

          And they purposely hobbled certain things people want, like inline links and images. Some clients will do it anyway, but it’s against the collective wishes of the developers.

          If I wanted to track people on Gemini, I could totally do it. It’d just be in a more server-to-server way than how its evolved on HTTP (pixel trackers and such).

    • Melvin_Ferd@lemmy.worldEnglish
      0·
      11 天前

      Is there any way to go back to running these things on an old Dell in the corner of a bedroom next to a fire extinguisher?

      That’s when we have truly won

    • meejle@lemmy.worldEnglish
      0·
      11 天前

      I think it’ll happen, but I don’t think it’s happening yet.

      The unease is already there (“the internet used to be a place”/“why isn’t the internet fun any more?” sentiments and #OldWeb #SlowWeb hashtags), but I don’t think people are ready to do anything about it.

      I’m only one guy, with a small internet following, but I recently had a go at launching a small “Gaymers” webring (well, a simplified version of one). I promoted it on my socials, I laid out why I think it’s a good idea, I paid to “Blaze” it on Tumblr – I even emailed some like-minded creators directly.

      I rewrote the webpage multiple times, to try to make it more persuasive and more concise. I added a contact form in case people felt uncomfortable emailing me. I loosened the rules to allow commercial websites, as long as they were still independent. I worked hard on the widget and incorporated feedback (made it respect prefers-reduced-motion and made a static version for sites where animation would feel out of place).

      I got some good feedback; lots of people said it was interesting, and a good idea. But literally no one joined or expressed any interest in joining. 🤷‍♂️

      I’m going to have one more go at promoting it next time I’ve got money to spare, but I’ll most likely end up quietly deleting it along with any evidence it existed, because a webring of one is fucking embarrassing. 💀

      I guess if you build it, they will not necessarily come lmao

      • mesa@piefed.socialEnglish
        0·
        11 天前

        You may have more luck with neocities and their sites. Lots of webrings around there and a lot of people having fun.

      • jjjalljs@ttrpg.networkEnglish
        0·
        11 天前

        I love this idea. Do you mind if I promote it with some queer folks I know?

        Myself I’m pretty straight and don’t have a website, but maybe one day.

      • TerHu@lemmy.dbzer0.comEnglish
        0·
        11 天前

        i love the idea of hosting sites as part of a ring, but i don’t love the idea of having to add my full name and address in the about section, which i’d be legally required to do… i think that’s part of the issue for some people at least.

          • Jesus_666@lemmy.worldEnglish
            0·
            10 天前

            “Legally required”, so they’re seeing it in the local laws. Some countries require websites to disclose who operates them.

            For example, in Germany, websites are subject to the DDG (Digitale-Dienste-Gesetz, “digital services law”). Under this law they are subject to the same disclosure requirements as print media. At a minimum, this includes the full name, address, and email address. Websites updated operated by companies or for certain purposes can need much more stuff in there.

            Your website must have a complete imprint that can easily and obviously be reached from any part of the website and is explicitly called “imprint”.

            These rules are meaningless to someone hosting a website in Kenya, Australia, or Canada. But if you run a website in Germany you’d better familiarize yourself with them.

      • MagicShel@lemmy.zipEnglish
        0·
        11 天前

        I’ve been thinking about something like this but I’m not gay or really much of a gamer any more, so… different webrings I guess.

  • ThePowerOfGeek@lemmy.worldEnglish
    0·
    11 天前

    JavaScript, AJAX, and modern web frameworks have pushed us away from displaying information in a pure and clean way. We need to go back to a better time!

    Looks at no-HTML websites

    Shit, we’ve gone back too far!

    • B-TR3E@feddit.orgEnglish
      0·
      11 天前

      CSS on the other hand is quite essential to separate layout from content. Which is a good thing, so I can’t really think of a reason for a “no-CSS” rule. Specifically if you can use inline styles as well but in a way more messy way.

        • B-TR3E@feddit.orgEnglish
          0·
          10 天前

          Oh, come on. You really want some at least readable output. Things like image borders, consistently positioned images/diagrams, line breaks and page borders. Some whitespace and indentations, too. You just can’t read a couple of pages full of unformatted raw text without massive eye fatigue. I’m all for dumping JS and excessive frameworks, I’d prefer well-formed XHTML over any of that clients-side scripted crap, but totally rejecting CSS is pointless zealotry.

          • frezik@lemmy.blahaj.zoneEnglish
            0·
            10 天前

            Some people haven’t lived through the time when HTML layout was done through nested tables, and it shows.

            • B-TR3E@feddit.orgEnglish
              0·
              10 天前

              Yes , I can read books. I even read one or two of the 1200 around me. Those with the fuckpics and some of the funnier ones, like “Phänomenologie des Geistes” by Hegel. I wouldn’t have if they had been layouted using browser standards.

                • B-TR3E@feddit.orgEnglish
                  0·
                  10 天前

                  That’s not even convincing pedantery. Nobody would assune that a browser’s standard style might be an RFC, IETF- or in any way official standard,

            • B-TR3E@feddit.orgEnglish
              0·
              10 天前

              I don’t think. You can’t prove I do! Leave me alone. You’re one of them! I knew it all the time.

      • howrar@lemmy.caEnglish
        0·
        10 天前

        I think the idea is that you keep the layout as simple as possible such that you don’t need any code for it, css or otherwise.

      • sik0fewl@lemmy.caEnglish
        0·
        10 天前

        I know that’s what CSS is supposed to do, but I’m not sure many people use it that way.

  • Sentient Loom@sh.itjust.worksEnglish
    0·
    11 天前

    I love this.

    I thought I was being “bare-bones” when I remade my website with PHP & XML (no framework or database). What would they think about a python app that delivers plaintext or html? Is that still kosher for the no-js gang? Or does it have to be static files?

    • mesa@piefed.socialEnglish
      0·
      11 天前

      Dunno. Give it a shot and see how it goes!

      Personally I would just set nginx + translator that would push the site into different formats if I wanted it long term. Just dump the resultant files, set up a website.cool/xxx.txt and push it out there.

      • Sentient Loom@sh.itjust.worksEnglish
        0·
        11 天前

        I see they have a SFW requirement. And while my site is currently SFW, I won’t guarantee that it will remain so.

        Still, it’s at least making me consider cutting out all the zurb-foundation stuff, since that’s the only JS I have, and the site is simple enough that it doesn’t really need it.

    • jaybone@lemmy.zipEnglish
      0·
      11 天前

      I’d be down with the no-html crowd if they made one exception to allow anchor tags. A web without links sounds not so usable.

  • the_wiz@feddit.orgEnglish
    0·
    9 天前

    Just to mention it:

    gopher://sdf.org

    There is no better place for plain and real content

    • tehBishop@sh.itjust.worksEnglish
      0·
      8 天前

      Those websites are amazing, thank you.

      I checked the source to find the song only to realized I already had it in my playlist 😂

  • lmr0x61@lemmy.mlEnglish
    0·
    10 天前

    I host my own website, and I decided to rewrite the JS portions in React, in order to learn the framework. Boy was it a learning experience: To do the same thing required 2-4 times the amount of code—and that’s just in the scripts, let alone the all the bloat from the packages and the bundler.

    I know this is a bit more radical than cutting out frameworks, but working with the JS ecosystem was such a pain, largely because there’s you need to piece together different software to make a stack work, which may or may not go together well. And since your stack is likely unique, good luck getting help on your problems. It made me miss Rust (albeit most languages do)—in Rust, you have Cargo for everything, and it’s beautiful. Rust has its own difficulties, but they actually feel surmountable compared to the dependency hell of JS.

    • RagingRobot@lemmy.worldEnglish
      0·
      9 天前

      React is probably overkill for most simple sites. You could still use JavaScript for some cool stuff without needing all the libraries and frameworks

    • x0x7@lemmy.worldEnglish
      0·
      10 天前

      The dependency hell of JS is caused by React. It’s an ironic turn because node gained popularity in part because it was one of the first to have a coupled package manager with a massive public contribution model, full of a billion packages that follow the unix philosophy of “everything should do only one thing, and do it well” Dependency hell would disappear if people stopped popularizing competing swiss army knives. It’s made worse by people trying to mash these swiss army knives together just to improve portfolio.

      We’ve gotten to the point where you aren’t considered a real professional unless you start even the smallest projects with maximum technical debt.

      It should never be impressive that you used a tool. If the tool made programming it easier then it’s not a mental feat. If the tool made programming it harder, then people should think you are kind of slow for using a tool that made development harder. This is why brag culture over what tools are used makes no sense. Just use tools that make life easier. If it doesn’t make life easier, stop using it.