Right? When my extended family gets together there are like 40 of us. I might try to avoid the ones that are MAGA, or at least avoid talking politics with them, but I’m not gonna refuse to go to Christmas or Thanksgiving just because my chuddy uncle is going to be there. I’ll just take a walk with the other queer cousins and get a little toasted before dinner
Do you do the same thing with the ones that are child molesters? What you’re describing is identical to why most child molesters are family members and the molestation is actually known about.
What you describe about making nice with them even though they are arguably awful people is absolutely no different. Fucking hold them accountable. Tell them get their racist fucking asses out of your home. Tell them to fuck off and die mad. Quit enabling them. Your “logic” is exactly why most child molesters are family members and family friends.
Look, I’m no fan of conservatives, but you have to recognize that someone molesting children is very very different from someone holding conservative politics.
Do you really expect me to go through life shouting at and refusing to speak with anyone with politics to the right of mine? Life is full of compromises and picking your battles. I would absolutely refuse to be in the same room with a pedophile relative, because that’s a big deal worth fighting over. My aunt who thinks ivermectin works? Not worth the trouble.
Most people, even repeat Trump voters, are pretty tuned out of politics. So I don’t feel like it’s my solemn duty to grill everyone over their voting patterns, assume their vote defines them as a person, and only associate with the purest of heart.
but you have to recognize that someone molesting children is very very different from someone holding conservative politics.
I’m not talking about them. I’m talking about you needing to hold them accountable. In that, there is zero difference.
Do you really expect me to go through life shouting at and refusing to speak with anyone with politics to the right of mine?
I expect you to hold people accountable; especially family members. That actually starts with speaking with them and not avoiding the politics because that makes you both feel uncomfortable. However, when they decide that they are racist then, yeah, tell them to grow up or fuck off and die. Quit enabling them.
Most people, even repeat Trump voters, are pretty tuned out of politics.
Then tune them the fuck in. Quit letting the skate by playing nice with them at holiday dinners. Fuck holiday dinners; holding them accountable is far more important.
I admire your passion, but I disagree that it’s my responsibility to hold others accountable for their politics just because we’re related and going to the same dinner. I’m responsible for my own beliefs, and if I want to spend time trying to win people over to my side, that’s well and good. But there’s a time and a place for that, and I don’t think holiday meals are it. Purely from a strategic standpoint, I don’t think confronting someone over Thanksgiving dinner is going to win them, or anyone else in the room, to my side.
From a purely strategic standpoint the people like you in my family are seen as having chose the fascists over their queer family members, IJS. I don’t know how “bad” your family is, but I cut off my dad after he told me “n words are taking all the welfare” and I don’t talk to anyone who take his side on that issue. I’ve been called all manner of immature for that decision by people like you. But my dad is a racist chud, still is.
If they never face social consequences for being terrible people with terrible views they’ll never change. You’re helping to reinforce the idea that they’re right in their beliefs, because they get no consequences for them. It is everyone’s responsibility to hold our anti-social members accountable otherwise we end up with a hostile and anti-social society. Like we have. Because these people aren’t being held accountable. So yes, to some degree it’s absolutely your responsibility. But getting along is easier and doesn’t require any difficulty or sacrifice on your part. MAGA is bad but so it’s the quiet third that doesn’t push back on MAGAts to keep the peace. Collaborators more or less. It’s all the same to the people in MAGAs crosshairs.
Thank you. I appreciate that we can have a conversation.
I disagree that it’s my responsibility to hold others accountable for their politics just because we’re related
Why wouldn’t it be your responsibility? It’s my responsibility, too, but as someone closer to them it seems you bear an even larger burden. It’s part of being in a society.
I don’t think confronting someone over Thanksgiving dinner is going to win them
Not if that is the only time it ever happens. Even then, it is better than doing nothing and let them go merrily along making the lives of everyone around them a little bit worse.
You guys seem to be discussing, while having very strong opinions. I’m going to remove the comments about the trolling. Don’t go after the users, go after the argument.
Well now that you mention it there was that one great Uncle. Never knew the full details, but yeah kinda the same deal. Just came with the extended family.
My MAGA relatives are some of the worst human beings I’ve met. Hateful, loud, dumb bigots that seem unable to act like a decent human being for more than a few minutes at a time. I’ve heard the shit they’ve let slip out and they meant (and mean) every word.
They’re not welcome in my home and I am sure as shit am not wasting my time on them.
There are degrees of shitbaggery. There are people that can be redeemed without too much pain.
Nobody is an angel: everyone has harmful views and does bad things – it’s just a question quantity and quality. As much as it sucks the reality is if we set the bar too high we’re going to spend life alone … and risk being a hypocrite as well.
So we tolerate peoples failings as we hope they tolerate ours. We grow and redeem ourselves by learning of our flaws and blind spots from other people.
That being said there’s a line where its not worth it. Everyone has to decide where that is for themselves.
I can’t believe so many people think it’s just fine to engage with people that think I shouldn’t exist, or that them holding those views is no big deal.
American conservatism and American republicanism are interchangeable with MAGA.
Being a “republican” means different things based on context. The American Republican party is interchangeable with MAGA. The same is generally true of conservatism, although modern conservatism is always a harmful ideology.
Our families invite process is fairly simple. If you can’t last family time during holiday without talking politics, you aren’t invited. I think that’s a fairly healthy ask. I think only one person was excluded from family planning/gathering due to it, but thankfully the feeling was mutual because they couldn’t isolate their political side from their actual personality and as such didn’t want to be in an environment where they couldn’t talk politics anyway.
Ah… “don’t ask; don’t tell”. Everything is fine even if Uncle Steve is diddling your daughter (or son) while everyone else is watching football after the family feast.
Different scenario so therefore different rules. It may surprise some people on Lemmy but, not everyone that has a different political orientation is molesting children or some other extremity. Shocker I know.
There’s a time and a place for politics for either side. Family time isn’t one. We don’t want to be associated with people who can’t respect that. Regardless of political orientation.
Not everyone that has a different political orientation is molesting children or some other extremity.
True.
Family time isn’t a time and place for politics for either side.
I believe people have a responsibility to hold family accountable.
Politics rest on ethics, and supporters of the modern-day US Republican party have chosen hate over morality.
A family gathering is an ideal time to hold family accountable.
Naturally, exceptions should be made for events such as funerals and wakes.
I understand your opinion, and I do agree it’s the family’s responsibility to hold people accountable. However, there is a time and a place for everything.
I firmly disagree that family bonding time during holiday is the time for it. And that feeling is mostly shared throughout my immediate family.
I personally wouldn’t attend family gatherings that were containing political talks, to be honest, It spits in the face of the entire point of family bonding time to try to be pushing a political sway and goes against the entire point of meeting for holiday which is family time bonding and having fun.
those type of subjects generally cause more tension or isolation than bonding. So are better off as a more one-on-one than an entire family thing. A one-on-one also allows it to feel more organic. Someone is going to be way less receptive to any reasoning if they’re being put on the spot during a family dinner than if you were to just approach them during casual free time. Results caused by peer pressure rarely work out in the long run, in order to discuss opposing views, you need to keep the person you’re talking to open for discussion.
Personally, I feel isolating out the family members who can’t separate their political identity from their person is more than adequate for keeping family time as a bonding time instead of an infomercial/trying to pursuade people on differing opinions while getting the point across quite nicley.
Did I say slightly right or are you moving the goal posts? Yeah, you’re moving the goal posts. Be accountable. Hold others accountable - especially family.
you initiated the reply with a goalpost move what did you expect it to be ignored? Either way I think you are trolling me so I’m disengaging.
For context on their claim(which I had edited prior to their comment as it didn’t really matter to the post): My original reply stated that just because someone is slightly right doesn’t mean they molest kids. It had no place in the comment as it doesn’t matter the reason: Politics have zero place at family time.
I did no such thing. I said hold your fucking family accountable. Not doing so just because it “ruins thanksgiving dinner” is a piss-poor excuse. It’s this playing nice with family members that allows them to continue comfortably being racists and/or pedophiles. Quit enabling them.
Politics have zero place at family time.
This is the most important time. When the fuck else are you going to do it? Jesus fucking christ, hold your family accountable for not being awful people. If you fail to do that then you, too, are an awful person. Maybe you didn’t know that before, but now you do and you have no further excuse.
If I am correct, and that is what you meant, I agree with your sentiment that family time is the most important and useful time to hold family accountable, and that holding family accountable is a moral imperative.
I did no such thing [a goalpost move].
I won’t deny that American conservatism protects pedophiles. But you equated conservatism with committing direct molestation of a child, which was a goalpost move.
I won’t deny that American conservatism protects pedophiles. But you equated conservatism with committing direct molestation of a child, which was a goalpost move.
No, I stated that people allow pedophilia to continue out of deference to keeping the peace within the family. I did not say maga == pedophiles. Refusing to have difficult conversations with family members to hold them accountable allows the bad behavior to continue without challenge or consequence.
After Election Day 2024 I completely cut my republican father out of my life. He never was maga, but he was celebrating trimp’s win (ironically by listening to a Woodie Guthrie cd I got him). I did not speak to him for almost a year and a half, then in April I found out he was going to group therapy. I am unsure of the exact nature of the GT but one of his friend’s that is in the GT said it is to redeem them.
We still do not have the close relationship that we used to have, and I doubt we ever will again.
The crazy thing is he used to be a long haired hippie fighting for freedoms and protecting protesting the Vietnam war.
Most healthy members of society dude 😭
Yes, healthy members of society spend time with their pedophile supporting extending family. Right.
I am not weak enough to give up on someone. Every meeting is a chance to educate them
Holding people accountable for their horrible views isn’t weak. What a weird take.
As long as you use that opportunity to try to educate them, instead of inviting them over without holding them accountable.
Right? When my extended family gets together there are like 40 of us. I might try to avoid the ones that are MAGA, or at least avoid talking politics with them, but I’m not gonna refuse to go to Christmas or Thanksgiving just because my chuddy uncle is going to be there. I’ll just take a walk with the other queer cousins and get a little toasted before dinner
I would, were I you, use that time to hold them accountable for their politics of hate. I see that as the morally correct action.
Nor would I, in most cases. Were the celebration with mostly MAGA family, I would consider not attending.
Must be nice for only some of them to be MAGA.
When they’re all MAGA, though, sometimes it’s best to just not go.
Aww the cousin walk <3
Do you do the same thing with the ones that are child molesters? What you’re describing is identical to why most child molesters are family members and the molestation is actually known about.
Of course not? What kind of question is that? Being a child molester and being a conservative are two wildly different things
One fucks children the other just supports people that fuck children.
Correct, one molests children and the other protects child molestors. Only sometimes are they one and the same.
Edit: Imagine downvoting this, you people are excrutiatingly forgiving of the people who would just as easily see you in chains.
What you describe about making nice with them even though they are arguably awful people is absolutely no different. Fucking hold them accountable. Tell them get their racist fucking asses out of your home. Tell them to fuck off and die mad. Quit enabling them. Your “logic” is exactly why most child molesters are family members and family friends.
Look, I’m no fan of conservatives, but you have to recognize that someone molesting children is very very different from someone holding conservative politics.
Do you really expect me to go through life shouting at and refusing to speak with anyone with politics to the right of mine? Life is full of compromises and picking your battles. I would absolutely refuse to be in the same room with a pedophile relative, because that’s a big deal worth fighting over. My aunt who thinks ivermectin works? Not worth the trouble.
Most people, even repeat Trump voters, are pretty tuned out of politics. So I don’t feel like it’s my solemn duty to grill everyone over their voting patterns, assume their vote defines them as a person, and only associate with the purest of heart.
I’m not talking about them. I’m talking about you needing to hold them accountable. In that, there is zero difference.
I expect you to hold people accountable; especially family members. That actually starts with speaking with them and not avoiding the politics because that makes you both feel uncomfortable. However, when they decide that they are racist then, yeah, tell them to grow up or fuck off and die. Quit enabling them.
Then tune them the fuck in. Quit letting the skate by playing nice with them at holiday dinners. Fuck holiday dinners; holding them accountable is far more important.
I admire your passion, but I disagree that it’s my responsibility to hold others accountable for their politics just because we’re related and going to the same dinner. I’m responsible for my own beliefs, and if I want to spend time trying to win people over to my side, that’s well and good. But there’s a time and a place for that, and I don’t think holiday meals are it. Purely from a strategic standpoint, I don’t think confronting someone over Thanksgiving dinner is going to win them, or anyone else in the room, to my side.
From a purely strategic standpoint the people like you in my family are seen as having chose the fascists over their queer family members, IJS. I don’t know how “bad” your family is, but I cut off my dad after he told me “n words are taking all the welfare” and I don’t talk to anyone who take his side on that issue. I’ve been called all manner of immature for that decision by people like you. But my dad is a racist chud, still is.
If they never face social consequences for being terrible people with terrible views they’ll never change. You’re helping to reinforce the idea that they’re right in their beliefs, because they get no consequences for them. It is everyone’s responsibility to hold our anti-social members accountable otherwise we end up with a hostile and anti-social society. Like we have. Because these people aren’t being held accountable. So yes, to some degree it’s absolutely your responsibility. But getting along is easier and doesn’t require any difficulty or sacrifice on your part. MAGA is bad but so it’s the quiet third that doesn’t push back on MAGAts to keep the peace. Collaborators more or less. It’s all the same to the people in MAGAs crosshairs.
Thank you. I appreciate that we can have a conversation.
Why wouldn’t it be your responsibility? It’s my responsibility, too, but as someone closer to them it seems you bear an even larger burden. It’s part of being in a society.
Not if that is the only time it ever happens. Even then, it is better than doing nothing and let them go merrily along making the lives of everyone around them a little bit worse.
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You guys seem to be discussing, while having very strong opinions. I’m going to remove the comments about the trolling. Don’t go after the users, go after the argument.
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Removed by mod
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Stop calling them a troll, this is a warning before a day break. Go after the argument, not the user. They’re discussing further in.
Well now that you mention it there was that one great Uncle. Never knew the full details, but yeah kinda the same deal. Just came with the extended family.
My family extended to just 1st cousins is more than 80 people. Every single last one full maga Christo-fascists. Not worth being around.
Yeah, super healthy to go hang out with people who want people like you bashished from society because of who you want to love 🙄
How “healthy” it is to attend holiday gatherings with your family depends entirely on your family’s chud ratio.
Not conservative, not “republican”: MAGA.
My MAGA relatives are some of the worst human beings I’ve met. Hateful, loud, dumb bigots that seem unable to act like a decent human being for more than a few minutes at a time. I’ve heard the shit they’ve let slip out and they meant (and mean) every word.
They’re not welcome in my home and I am sure as shit am not wasting my time on them.
Conservative, republican, and MAGA are interchangeable. You don’t get to claim to be one without the others. They’re all the same at this point.
There are degrees of shitbaggery. There are people that can be redeemed without too much pain.
Nobody is an angel: everyone has harmful views and does bad things – it’s just a question quantity and quality. As much as it sucks the reality is if we set the bar too high we’re going to spend life alone … and risk being a hypocrite as well.
So we tolerate peoples failings as we hope they tolerate ours. We grow and redeem ourselves by learning of our flaws and blind spots from other people.
That being said there’s a line where its not worth it. Everyone has to decide where that is for themselves.
I can’t believe so many people think it’s just fine to engage with people that think I shouldn’t exist, or that them holding those views is no big deal.
American conservatism and American republicanism are interchangeable with MAGA.
Being a “republican” means different things based on context. The American Republican party is interchangeable with MAGA. The same is generally true of conservatism, although modern conservatism is always a harmful ideology.
Our families invite process is fairly simple. If you can’t last family time during holiday without talking politics, you aren’t invited. I think that’s a fairly healthy ask. I think only one person was excluded from family planning/gathering due to it, but thankfully the feeling was mutual because they couldn’t isolate their political side from their actual personality and as such didn’t want to be in an environment where they couldn’t talk politics anyway.
So your approach is just not talking about the problems? Very healthy. /s
The “see no evil, speak no evil” crowd aren’t much help to the downtrodden. /li
Ah… “don’t ask; don’t tell”. Everything is fine even if Uncle Steve is diddling your daughter (or son) while everyone else is watching football after the family feast.
Different scenario so therefore different rules. It may surprise some people on Lemmy but, not everyone that has a different political orientation is molesting children or some other extremity. Shocker I know.
There’s a time and a place for politics for either side. Family time isn’t one. We don’t want to be associated with people who can’t respect that. Regardless of political orientation.
True.
I believe people have a responsibility to hold family accountable. Politics rest on ethics, and supporters of the modern-day US Republican party have chosen hate over morality. A family gathering is an ideal time to hold family accountable. Naturally, exceptions should be made for events such as funerals and wakes.
I understand your opinion, and I do agree it’s the family’s responsibility to hold people accountable. However, there is a time and a place for everything.
I firmly disagree that family bonding time during holiday is the time for it. And that feeling is mostly shared throughout my immediate family.
I personally wouldn’t attend family gatherings that were containing political talks, to be honest, It spits in the face of the entire point of family bonding time to try to be pushing a political sway and goes against the entire point of meeting for holiday which is family time bonding and having fun.
those type of subjects generally cause more tension or isolation than bonding. So are better off as a more one-on-one than an entire family thing. A one-on-one also allows it to feel more organic. Someone is going to be way less receptive to any reasoning if they’re being put on the spot during a family dinner than if you were to just approach them during casual free time. Results caused by peer pressure rarely work out in the long run, in order to discuss opposing views, you need to keep the person you’re talking to open for discussion.
Personally, I feel isolating out the family members who can’t separate their political identity from their person is more than adequate for keeping family time as a bonding time instead of an infomercial/trying to pursuade people on differing opinions while getting the point across quite nicley.
Did I say slightly right or are you moving the goal posts? Yeah, you’re moving the goal posts. Be accountable. Hold others accountable - especially family.
Chill, you’re getting aggressive. I see you discussing in other areas, but please chill.
Acknowledged and apologies…
you initiated the reply with a goalpost move what did you expect it to be ignored? Either way I think you are trolling me so I’m disengaging.
For context on their claim(which I had edited prior to their comment as it didn’t really matter to the post): My original reply stated that just because someone is slightly right doesn’t mean they molest kids. It had no place in the comment as it doesn’t matter the reason: Politics have zero place at family time.
I did no such thing. I said hold your fucking family accountable. Not doing so just because it “ruins thanksgiving dinner” is a piss-poor excuse. It’s this playing nice with family members that allows them to continue comfortably being racists and/or pedophiles. Quit enabling them.
This is the most important time. When the fuck else are you going to do it? Jesus fucking christ, hold your family accountable for not being awful people. If you fail to do that then you, too, are an awful person. Maybe you didn’t know that before, but now you do and you have no further excuse.
I think you meant “for being awful people”.
If I am correct, and that is what you meant, I agree with your sentiment that family time is the most important and useful time to hold family accountable, and that holding family accountable is a moral imperative.
I won’t deny that American conservatism protects pedophiles. But you equated conservatism with committing direct molestation of a child, which was a goalpost move.
I stated it weirdly, but you got the intent.
No, I stated that people allow pedophilia to continue out of deference to keeping the peace within the family. I did not say maga == pedophiles. Refusing to have difficult conversations with family members to hold them accountable allows the bad behavior to continue without challenge or consequence.
That’s not healthy. That’s enabling.
After Election Day 2024 I completely cut my republican father out of my life. He never was maga, but he was celebrating trimp’s win (ironically by listening to a Woodie Guthrie cd I got him). I did not speak to him for almost a year and a half, then in April I found out he was going to group therapy. I am unsure of the exact nature of the GT but one of his friend’s that is in the GT said it is to redeem them.
We still do not have the close relationship that we used to have, and I doubt we ever will again.
The crazy thing is he used to be a long haired hippie fighting for freedoms and
protectingprotesting the Vietnam war.Protesting?
Yup! Hah
It sucks when that has to happen, but good on you.
That’s not x that’s y 😭
It’s not a writing trend — it’s an experience.
That’s normal English phrasing.