George fucking Bush got on stage and told you idiots not to put Trump in office. The fucking Cheneys got up and said “hey maybe this is a bad idea this time.”
There is no complicity, there is just assholes not listening when it actually mattered.
The reason they are silent is because they have been actively, not passively, complicit. Take Obama, for example. The man kept the patriot act in place, expanded it, killed more people with Drones than Bush, including a U.S. citizen, prosecuted journalists and whistleblowers, etc. Bill Clinton repealed Glass Steagal which created the conditions for the 2007-2008 financial crisis, implemented “triangulation” as a political strategy….
If I was any of these people I would shut the fuck up too.
I mean… Regardless of them being biased or not, or how good a President they were during their terms, didn’t every single one of them warn the people this was to be expected when you put a clown on the White House? That it’d turn into a circus?
Even Kamala warned about it, and I don’t even like her and don’t see her as POTUS material. But even if she didn’t do much as a leader, even if her term was mostly unremarkable, it still wouldn’t be as implosive as Trump 2.0.
Words, at the end of the day, are just words. They’re pretty worthless if there’s no action behind them. And Trump calls that bluff daily. He fully knows people will complain and badmouth him, but won’t go further than that. If you wanna call the bluffer’s bluff, act, don’t just threaten. And even if the worst the people can do to him is remove him from office (aka, no lenghty prison time, or remove all his assets and his friend’s, or worse) then he’s already won and paved the way for the next one in line to try his shot.
And to be clear - I did not vote for this. Like, at all, because I’m not even american. And yet billions of people are still being affected by this debacle of misplaced trust by our collective predecessors.
As far as a spec of dust such as myself can do, I won’t contribute to this dependency ever.
I can’t believe the top comment on this post.
The assholeness of blame and what-if-ism is the death knell for any hopes that this generation has what it takes to combat this fascism.
I hope you can stop sniping at people helping you, and act. This tail biting has got to stop. Forget the failures of the past. How much guilt do you want to squeeze from people who may or may not have contributed to its cause?
Succeed today, or it’s over. Get your shit together.
And to add to this, emphasis on Together. We need to be a United Left. We need to participate in local and primary elections across the board, starting yesterday. We need to vote for Bernie and people he supports, and in a great many cases that includes voting for the DNC.
Hold on I’m going to go stand in the street and call people fascists while I have a box at home that is built to get a message out and connect people
You think shitposting and bitching online is the same as engaging with people in real life?
That certainly explains a lot.
The left keep losing because you all think protesting is more effective then using online sources to spread ideas.
Did Russia invest in protests to get trump elected?
No they invested efforts into the IRA.
They have turned the main population against the left at every protest with just online engagement. They even turn the left on themselves. They minute a decent voice makes themselves known on the left, there’s always group on the left that pops up to abuse them. A few weeks ago I saw people calling Jon Stewart a fascist.
Keep protesting though everyone. You’re making great progress so far. Maybe you just need a few more thousand next time.
You can do both. However local engagement typically brings a better ROI because divide and conquer.
Massively disagree on this
It’s like thinking a race horse can compete against a car.
Please stop taking this guy seriously ffs. A year ago this sub was all RFKJ bullshit. Just stop it.
It’s scary watching an empire collapse in real time.
It’s not so scary when life was already eroding away from under you, and you’d already given up on many of your dreams.
This is America. Most of the inhabitants at this point were sold a pipe dream by the generations before us that had far, far more opportunities and stability.
Now, these same assholes are strip mining what remains, all while lecturing us on how we’re demanding too much when we seek financial stability and complaining/panicking when we try to point out what’s happening is ruining our futures.
I’m not scared at this point, I’m angry and disappointed.
Especially when we live there.
Who exactly does he think the former presidents are going to convince? They hate Bush, and the rest are all Democrats.
Democrats can tap Dick Cheney. He was from their party right? Great guy I heard.
I think it’s more about galvanizing and focusing some actual opposition to Trump, and making it more difficult for him to do what he wants to do.
You know who should be doing that? The Democrats in the House and Senate. If they cant even do that a bunch of geriatric retired politicians writing a letter to the editor its going to galvanize anything.
We should be
Trump’s willingness to allow them secret service protection is all that’s keeping his unhinged followers from going after them. He could cancel that and announce open season on them if he feels like it. Their families and anyone who works with them would be endangered too.
They will just hire private security.
They’re all fantastically rich and frankly most don’t have many years left to spend it. They can fucking pay for security rather than disappear during the greatest political crisis in 50 years.
So what? That’s not an excuse.
If it wasn’t for you, Nader, Al Gore would’ve been our president. So you can fuck all the way off.
Wow that would have delayed the slide into Fascism by exactly 4 years.
That wasn’t the reason. Nader was a voice, not a driver
If Al Gore had gotten out of the way, Nader could have been our president. And where exactly has Al Gore been since the day he lost? If he’s worth a damn why isnt Gore speaking now? Nader is standing up and speaking now-- is Gore like just too darn busy or something?
If Al Gore had gotten out of the way, Nader could have been our president. And where exactly has Al Gore been lately? Did you read Naders post? He makes a lot of good points. Where the eff are the respected leaders on the dem side. They are all doing nothing.
I’m sorry, this has to be satire right? Or are you just 12 years old or something?
This kind of circular firing squad bull shit is exactly why American liberals get their ass kicked in almost every election. So busy blaming each other instead of the people that actually elected the moron in charge. What happened to big tent?
We can’t possibly blame Republicans for ratfucking our country 50 years straight
Blaming Nader for the Supreme Court handing the election to the Bush Dynasty is the kind of thinking that paralyzed American politics on the “left.” Nader spent his career working to help the people.
Bush having the governor of the deciding state be his brother and having the Supreme Court in his pocket sealed that election.
Democrats should win every election by massive landslides. Instead, they spent the last several decades bowing to billionaires and providing controlled opposition that suppressed any actual reform.
The illusion of choice between neoliberals morphed into fascism, and it’s now difficult to discern neoliberals from fascists. They have the same interests: Big number goes up for billionaires; nothing else matters.
You talk about the splintered left and GOP corruption and then you unashamedly defame Democrats in a single breath, wow.
🎭 Original Claim:
"If it wasn’t for Nader, Al Gore would’ve been our president. So he can fuck all the way off."🔍 Step 1: Emotional Noise Filter
This claim is loaded with emotional intensity:
It uses blame-framing (“because of Nader”) and moral outrage (“he can fuck all the way off”). This is outrage induction, not just opinion — it presents Nader’s candidacy as not only consequential, but morally unforgivable.🛑 Distortion Detected → Emotional Persuasion: The tone demands rejection of a person based on an emotionally charged version of a historical what-if. 📌 Let’s neutralize the distortion using the [[Framing Neutralizer (FN)]]:
Framed as: “Nader’s candidacy ruined everything, therefore he deserves total dismissal.” Reframed neutrally: “Some analysts believe Ralph Nader’s third-party run in 2000 may have affected the outcome of the election. The debate remains contentious.”Notice how that removes emotional judgment and loaded blame, but preserves the subject. 🔎 Step 2: Relevance Check
Is this still a meaningful claim today?
In political history discussions: yes — it’s a key moment often cited when discussing third-party impact. In personal outrage: less so, unless the speaker is still emotionally processing the 2000 election.So we ask: is this a political analysis or a grudge statement? 🧩 Step 3: Clarity & Precision Test
Let’s try a mini Precision Breakdown (PB):
Core Assertion: Nader’s candidacy caused Al Gore to lose. Supporting Evidence?: This is debated. Nader got 97,000 votes in Florida; Bush won by ~500. But... Missing Context?: Gore lost his home state (Tennessee). The Supreme Court intervened. Ballot design confusion (butterfly ballot) also played a role. Perception Impact: Frames one person as solely responsible — simplifies a complex, multi-factor event.🧭 Bottom Line via Clarity Compass (CC): Direction Assessment Truth Check Partially grounded in historical fact Evidence Check Lacks full context or causal certainty Context Check Oversimplifies election outcome factors Impact Check High emotional impact, blame-focused framing 🪞 Reframed for Clarity:
“There’s debate over whether Nader’s 2000 campaign affected Gore’s loss — but blaming him alone ignores other pivotal factors, like the Supreme Court decision, ballot issues in Florida, and Gore’s loss of key states.”Truly nothing has changed in 20 years, huh? Still have morons who don’t understand first past the post and why we only have two parties.
Democrats should win every election by massive landslides. Instead, they spent the last several decades bowing to billionaires and providing controlled opposition that suppressed any actual reform.
And now I no longer hear “vote blue, no matter who” slogan since Chuck Schumer helped the Republicans pass on the budget bill.
I mean, vote blue, but primary the fuck out of people like that.
The neoliberals use the slogan to condition people to accept the false dichotomy of having to always choose the “lesser evil”, and make voters complacent from pressuring their representatives.
I looked at the totals for the 2000 election and found that, had every Nader voter instead voted for Gore, there would have been only two states that would have flipped:
- Florida, by a tally of 2,912,790 Bush to 3,009,741.
- New Hampshire, which would have been 273,559 Bush to 288,546 Gore.
Now, it’s entirely possible we still get the ratfucking from SCOTUS and they still throw the state to Bush. But New Hampshire had 4 electoral votes, and had they gone for Gore then it would have been 267 Bush - 270 President Gore.
Bush won because 22,198 people in NH didn’t understand that voting for a third-party only hurts the major party that most closely aligns with your ideals.
only two states
lol yeah, only Florida.
Having only two major parties and “winner takes it all” elections is a shit system and it was doomed to fail. You can’t force people to vote for “the lesser of two evils” forever. That’s not how a democracy is supposed to work. Especially if neither of the major parties allign with your ideals. Of course the consequences of this non-compliance are dire but it was inevitable.
Having only two major parties and “winner takes it all” elections is a shit system and it was doomed to fail (…) That’s not how a democracy is supposed to work.
I agree. And yet, it’s what we have (well…)
Especially if neither of the major parties allign with your ideals. Of course the consequences of this non-compliance are dire but it was inevitable.
That right there is the crux of the issue. It is mathematically certain that the US electoral system, as it is now, will result in two parties. And it is equally certain because of that fact that voting for anyone other than one of those two party candidates will result in helping the other candidate. Knowing this, a responsible voter should decide to support whichever party most closely aligns with their values, because otherwise they’re helping the major party they lease align with win instead.
If you agree with the Dems on one issue, and agree with the GOP on zero issues, you should still vote for the Dems in the general election.
You have to vote for the lesser of two evils in order to get a chance at changing the election system.
The GOP are trying to take away voting rights. Not the Dems.
I realize this sounds like false equivalence, but at this point, I do think it needs to be said:
When the lesser of two evils sleepwalks us into the greater of two evils, there’s no material difference between the lesser and greater of two evils.
The fact that you’re more angry at those 22.198 people than the fact that our election system has been a broken joke since long before the year 2000 and continues to be a broken joke because of the undemocratic Electoral College is kind of pathetic.
Why aren’t you mad about that? Instead you’re mad at a group of citizens whose only power is their vote, while Senators and House Representatives who could have done something to change us to a better system have done fuck-all in decades.
Further, why aren’t you mad that the Supreme Court stole the election? And then rewarded the people who worked the case with their own Supreme Court seats? Or are you just fine with open corruption and prefer to blame people with no power?
Holy shit my dude, calm the fuck down. I neither expressed any agreement nor disagreement with the facts, and you’re just making baseless assumptions about how I feel about them.
No, I am not “more angry” at the Green voters than I am at insert whatever reason you think was the most important contributor to Gore’s loss you want here. But it is ridiculous to assume they (you?) share no part of the blame for Gore’s loss, when it’s demonstrable that in fact they bear some amount. Also I find it amusing you’re telling me who I should be mad at and you never once mentioned the Republicans who voted for Bush.
Did SCOTUS make a bad ruling? Abso-fucking-lutely they did. But you know what? If NH had gone to Gore SCOTUS wouldn’t have even mattered.
Does our system suck? Abso-fucking-lutely it does. You can rant and rave all day about how unfair and undemocratic it is, and how much it needs to change and I’ll spend all day agreeing with you. But the difference between us is, I recognize that voting is a tactical decision, not an emotional one. I don’t particularly like the Democrats, probably for many of the same reasons you would list. I vote for them in the general election, however, because I understand that not doing so helps Republicans win. Again, this is literal demonstrable fact. And I agree with the Dems on a hell of a lot more than I do with the GOP.
Your usage of the word tactical is appropriate.
Liberals always try to justify voting for literal genocidaires, over the left demanding something for their ever increasingly important vote, by couching their arguments in the vestments of logic and game theory.
You know, without a mathematical background.
And then they fucking butcher it because the argument they put fourth is from week one of a 101 entry level game theory class.
To put it another way:
You’re tactically voting and losing the war when you need to be voting strategically.
That involves the left demanding things for their view, and the right that has stayed in power in the DNC, through cheating, giving some up.
Meanwhile, dumb people that like to feel smart justify demanding the left give up power for free while holding those in power to absolutely no accountability.
Always punching down.
This is the only “argument” these people have.
I’m not even exaggerating when I say that every single discussion that I’ve had on this site about this topic has ended the same exact way: with a straw man and/or whataboutism. It’s all they have.
The fact that you’re more angry at those 22.198 people than the fact that our election system has been a broken joke since long before the year 2000 and continues to be a broken joke because of the undemocratic Electoral College is kind of pathetic.
It’s possible to be mad at both of those things… over and over… every fucking election cycle.
Source: me.
Seriously, I fucking hate arguments like this. “Why are you mad about x and not y?” Bitch, I’m angry about both!
Why all the whataboutism?
Every election cycle there is a non zero number of people that get tricked into voting against their own best interest. That’s a valid thing to call out and be angry about.
Just because that commenter pointed that out doesn’t mean he doesn’t also get angry about all the other things you’re “whatabouting” about.
As a reminder, Chief Justice John Roberts as well as Justice Brett Kavanaugh and Justice Amy Coney Barrett all worked the hanging chads case on the side of Bush.
The fact that people still blame Nader instead of the fucks who literally owe their positions to being on the case is such a joke. Like, why does anything think these pricks ended up Justices? Because they helped steal an election in 2000.
Multiple people can be to blame. And 3rd party candidates whose only purpose is to split the vote are always to blame. Corrupt courts and politicians are also always to blame.
You’re not wrong. But at this point I’ll take all the allies I can get. Anybody who’s willing to stand the fuck up (looking at you, Nader, Bernie, AoC, Walz, Booker) earns a ton of forgiveness for past misdeeds.
And honestly, when I think of about just how badly Harris shit the bed, and how much she and Biden failed the American people, I can bring myself to forgive Nader.
willing to stand the fuck up (looking at you, Nader, Bernie, AoC, Walz, Booker)
What does “stand[ing] up” look like? Nader talks and it’s angels trumpets but AoC and Bernie talk hard all day and it’s somehow not as good?
And please don’t shit on the only non-felon election choice when she was only one vote and the only non-felon. This was an IQ test and America lost spectacularly. At this point, blaming coach and Harris is a bit of a tell.
And please don’t shit on the only non-felon election choice when she was only one vote and the only non-felon. This was an IQ test and America lost spectacularly. At this point, blaming coach and Harris is a bit of a tell.
Yeah, no. Trump was a shit candidate who spent the whole election lying and rambling and spewing fear and hate. Incompetently spewing fear and hate.
Any competent candidate would have beaten Trump.
Any competent President would have pardoned Trump on day one. Or at least day 365. When it was clear that the constant FBI bullshit surrounding Trump did nothing but keep his name in the papers and make him more popular with his base. Recognize that he’s too rich to send to prison and just make the whole issue go away. Donald Trump is President now because Trump was in more headlines than Biden for the whole four fucking years of his Presidency.
Any competent liberal President, for that matter, would have taken strong steps to help Americans suffering from the COVID recession. And if they were stopped by Republican bullshittery they would have fucking fought for it.
The coward, the wimp, the loser, the piece of shit who let Roe die on his watch without lifting a finger to codify abortion protections on a federal level, who was so ineffectual he couldn’t even reduce student loan payments - and then when Harris took over from him, when he finally collapsed on stage, she groveled to Biden’s legacy and was like “I wouldn’t have done a single thing differently”?
It would have taken the worst possible Democrats in the world to lose to Trump and that’s who we fucking had.
I refuse to blame the American voter. Because the purpose of a politician is to lead, not follow. And the Democratic failure of leadership under the Biden administration was the worst in American history.
So far.
Given the specific names on that list, I took it as an awkward attempt to list the people they think are standing up, rather than a list of people they were admonishing for not standing up
Yeah, maybe I misphrased it. But those were the people who came to mind as actually, one, coming out in public and trying to take a leadership position in the opposition, and, two, being competent and successful enough to get at least some traction with the people in the media.
Yep. Nader contributed directly to all this shit.
Shit, I thought he was dead.
