In an unexpected mask off “secure” email and VPN provider Proton took the stance of siding with the fascist MAGA Reps. Proton’s services are no option for me and many others any longer. Let’s collect and discuss alternatives (E2E encrypted email and VPN) here 🔐👇
Always try to provide:
-Server location (jurisdiction)
-Governance
-Integrity/trustworthiness/transparency
-User experience/ease of use (grade 1 to 10, lets take Proton as a benchmark with an 8)
-Pricing and links
If you know alternative setups, feel free to share, too.
#ProtonExodus
Background: https://lemmy.ca/comment/13913116
Edit:typo
Sigh.
Goddammit. I’m so fucking tired.
This is how they win.
Like zombies, slow and steady, dumb and hungry
Be tired with Tuta!
Am I the only that don’t see this the same way as the rest? I am in way way endorsing or supporting MAGA, but they did take action against big tech (though for reasons of retribution) and I see Proton only acknowledging a good person being designated to lead the next antitrust efforts, apparently with a good track record.
Proton also acknowledges Lina Kahn who has done a great job, nominated under Joe Biden.
Ultimately, I feel like from a perspective of Proton, any win against Big Tech, is a good win, and I can’t disagree.
There is a longer discussion to be had around how the dems were supported by oligarchs and I think that’s what Proton is referring to, they decided to turn a blind eye under the Obama administration for instance. Bernie Sanders goes to lengths about this in this interview, illuminating: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MzkgWDCucNY
So all in all, maga sucks, new pick probably good, and in my view, proton not actually endorsing maga/trump but just acknowledging a good pick.
Did I miss something?
The main part of the message that pissed me off was the idea that GOP sides with the “little guy”. First, it’s demonstrably false. Second, he is a tech CEO. He wouldn’t recognise a little guy before his security crew has time to forcibly remove him.
Yes I fully agree with you.
Does that claim alone warrant the absolute backlash though? I personally feel like no.
Misinformation. OP is advocating that you shoot yourself in the foot.
The CEO said something silly on Twitter which revealed either that (a) he shares an exceedingly banal opinion with literally half of America or (b) he’s not above a bit of preemptive sycophancy to advance his (positive) anti-trust agenda.
There’s nothing particularly scandalous in the offending tweet:
- Implying that the Democrats are now “the party of big business” is arguably true (and very boring)
- Implying that the Republicans now “stand for the little guys” is dumb but also arguably true, unfortunately - the working classes swung to Trump in the recent election while the Democrats are fast becoming a party of high-earning elites (which is why they lost)
- Saying that the antitrust actions began under Trump I is, well, true
Proton is not owned Zuck-like by its CEO. It’s controlled by a foundation with other stakeholders on the board, including the inventor of the Web himself. In its niche it is still by far the best option. Ditching it for a nebulous non-existent alternative because the CEO expressed a dumb and extremely commonplace opinion is just silly and self-defeating.
PS: to be clear, OP is peddling misinformation because it’s not true that “Proton took the stance” of anything. It’s the personal opinion of the CEO that’s at issue. It’s a major distinction. I find it disappointing that people interested in privacy would have such little respect for a private individual’s right to have their own thoughts.
PPS: to be extra clear, my comments are about the post above, not stuff that people are reading elsewhere. But the substance stands. See discussion for detail.
I find it disappointing that people interested in privacy would have such little respect for a private individual’s right to have their own thoughts.
Well said, my friend.
Not American, but there is this regarding the third point: https://www.reddit.com/r/ProtonMail/comments/1i1zjgn/comment/m7b1wib/
Any thoughts here?
To me this whole demonizing proton ceo thing seems a bit overblown. Sucking up is actually pathetic and funny
If you’ve got an argument, make it.
Well the reddit comment says completely opposite of what you said - that trump didn’t really increase / start with antitrust, but rather did the opposite.
Well it’s either true or it’s not. Did you bother looking it up to check?
I love how you’re claiming misinformation while posting misinformation. It’s not the CEO, it’s a board member. That said, the company also officially posted these ideas on their Bluesky account.
This isn’t a “CEO” expressing a belief, it’s the board, and now the official company line.
I’m not disagreeing with their post particularly on corporate dems, but this is a company and not a persons sole belief.
Also, if dems are the party of big business then why are all these big businesses donating to Trump? Does that just mean republicans are the party of even bigger business?
This is all over the place.
My comment concerns the post above. OP cites a tweet and states a falsehood about it. No, “Proton” did not “take the stance” of anything in that tweet. Yes, Andy Yen is the CEO. Yes, that tweet is in his name and not in the name of Proton. I was not responding to other things that you’ve seen elsewhere.
Now, as for those other things elsewhere, I stick by the substance of my point. Sure, it’s more of a problem that dumb things are being said in the name of Proton rather than just it’s CEO. But look at the detail of those things. There is nothing scandalous. People are getting their underwear in a twist about extremely common opinions being expressed on Twitter. Personally I don’t care if a CEO voted a different way to me, or even if a whole board did. This should not have any bearing on Proton’s product or what makes it better than others. This is just another typically American culture-war drama. It’s boring.
Personally I don’t care if a CEO voted a different way to me, or even if a whole board did. This should not have any bearing on Proton’s product or what makes it better than others.
I won’t have a friend who supports Trump, because to do so is to support a regressive, bigoted, jackbooted view of the world and how things should be done. I don’t speak to my Trump supporting family members except when family situations force us to.
WHY ON EARTH would I trust my privacy to a company whose entire board supports that view, much less their CEO?
Implying that the Democrats are now “the party of big business” is arguably true (and very boring)
While true in some scenarios, in anti-trust Lina khan’s ftc has done significantly more than trump ever did. Biden keeping her over the protest of countless business execs and daily articles in the wall street journal on how she’s ruining America shows some commitment to prosecuting big tech.
Meanwhile, trump’s anti-trust moves were mostly based off petty issues he had with the ceos or the platforms having a “liberal bias”. Now that every big tech ceo has fallen in line and given him $1 million for his inauguration I doubt we’ll see much movement on that front.
Completely agree on all that.
YOU POSTED the comment they are rebutting. And your reply to the rebuttal of your own comment is “completely agree?”
I find it disappointing that people interested in privacy would have such little respect for a private individual’s right to have their own thoughts.
Ding ding ding.
It seems the vast majority of people do NOT want to allow speech they don’t like, no matter the consequences. That requires too much forward thinking. Excuse me while I watch history repeat itself…
Oh I want him to be allowed to speak his mind. I just don’t want to give a Trumpet any money, and especially not after their annoucement of a crypto wallet and ventures into AI crap.
Free speech doesn’t mean I should spend my money there.
Yes I tend to share your analysis.
The privacy community is always told to verify, not trust. The board of Proton have decided to publicly state something that leads a lot of people to be unable to trust them - namely supporting the choices of an extreme right wing leader who has repeatedly demonstrated the foolishness of trusting anything he says or does.
This CEO is totally free to have their own thoughts but its verging on the ridiculous to think that other people aren’t going to have a negative reaction to them and seek alternatives. Its next to impossible to trust a company that express approval of Trump decisions because its impossible to trust Trump. And Proton going out of their way to publicly state their approval when they are not even a US org and would’ve lost nothing by simply not saying anything suggests a board that was keen to publicly express support for Trump. It inevitably makes people who are already on the receiving end of Trumpian hate legislation, or who soon will be, wonder what else Proton might be willing to do for Trump in the future.
OP is peddling misinformation because it’s not true that “Proton took the stance” of anything.
Except Proton’s official Mastodon account made another post afterwords doubling down on the CEO’s comments. They ended up taking down the post due to getting a ton of backlash
Their official reddit account also tripled down by saying “here is our official response” (and then quoting the Mastodon post). So they’ve explicitly made it the company’s view - not just the CEO’s view.
I largely agree with what you’re saying, except the official Proton Mastadon account doubled down on that personal opinion. That seems pretty clear that it’s endorsed not just by that one individual on the board.
Significant if true. But still. Proton has a great product and a lot of stored-up goodwill. I think the reasonable thing to do here is to wait and see, and to judge them on actions before words.
I’m not jumping ship yet and am waiting to see what, if anything, happens from here. Maybe it comes out that the same person has access to that official Mastadon account and echoed their opinion there… and maybe it comes out that his comments/actions are disavowed by the rest of the organization.
I’ll wait and see. But it’s not a great start.
Fair enough. But this whole drama is still completely substance-free. The air of US-style thought-policing bothers me.
Link to Mastodon thread: https://mastodon.social/@protonprivacy/113833073219145503
Archives in case they delete it:
https://web.archive.org/web/20250115165213/https://mastodon.social/@protonprivacy/113833073219145503
Text copy of their post:
Corporate capture of Dems is real. In 2022, we campaigned extensively in the US for anti-trust legislation.
Two bills were ready, with bipartisan support. Chuck Schumer (who coincidently has two daughters working as big tech lobbyists) refused to bring the bills for a vote.
At a 2024 event covering antitrust remedies, out of all the invited senators, just a single one showed up - JD Vance.
By working on the front lines of many policy issues, we have seen the shift between Dems and Republicans over the past decade first hand.
Dems had a choice between the progressive wing (Bernie Sanders, etc), versus corporate Dems, but in the end money won and constituents lost.
Until corporate Dems are thrown out, the reality is that Republicans remain more likely to tackle Big Tech abuses.
This doesn’t seem bad? Its true dems embraced the corporate side. The republicans suck and are only going after tech until tech bows down to them (like zuck has been doing) but the post isn’t really outrageous or worse than the first tweet
Looks like backing up the post was a good call.
Just puked a little after reading that.
Here’s what I don’t get: if the leadership at Proton believes this shit, why share it on social media at all? It clearly isn’t going to make anyone in the left happy. Are they trying to capture porn-loving MAGA?
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It isn’t misinformation.
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Someone like this board member being a traitor to his species isn’t covered by “opinion”. No normalizing nazis. It’s such a low bar. He couldn’t clear it.
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He blasted his treachery over the public airwaves. His privacy isn’t being violated.
This whole comment feels like an exercise in using all the best words to miss the point. We know, as does this probably-lying board member, that Republicans are only going to go more authoritarian, and the only reason they would pretend to care about big tech abuses is to grab the steering wheel from them to commit far worse abuses. No company that gets into bed with traitors is going to become the new center of my digital life.
Tuta for email, syncthing for photos bc I’m not self-hosting, mullvad for VPN.
Traitor to his species
??? Lol? Imagine having an opinion in 2025
Sorry but I won’t participate in this juvenile trivializing of the word “Nazi”. Yes, I know that’s become almost a meaningless slur at this point, but personally I just will not take seriously anybody who throws it around like this. Perhaps because I’m European. Perhaps because I studied history. It’s not serious.
It’s because you’re a centrist.
You say it like it’s an insult! Actually I usually vote green. And in Europe the greens are really greens, rather than just spoilers who help Bushes and Trumps into power.
I didn’t intend it to be directly insulting, but it seems like you’re well aware how lemmy leans already and you’re willing to double down on centrist stalling points anyway. With no realistic middle choices available, and none cropping up, Americans are a little more than a little tired of centrist talking points.
Mate they’re mainstreaming fascist rhetoric. Over 60% of Republicans now believe in the Great Replacement theory aka White Genocide, which used to be a conspiracy theory on the fringes of white nationalist propaganda just about a decade ago.
I encourage you to not get hung up on symbolism and instead look to ideology and rhetoric.
Leaving aside the absurd and juvenile “Nazi” slur (“fascist” is less of a stretch), I disagree with your analysis. I think it’s exactly the opposite. I think it’s because mainstream politicians have refused to address the reasonable aspects of people’s concerns (about immigration, in particular), and because progressive activists have gone off the leash in their wild accusations of racism at the slightest contradiction of their opinions, that we’ve ended up in this situation of the far right getting into power all over the place.
Once again: I do not vote for these parties. Anyway, we are now completely offtopic so let’s leave it there.
So yes they’re fascist, but the progressives complained too much about racism, and therefore it’s fine to support the fascists?
IDK what to tell you but your political ideology is privileged garbage. You’re more scared of being called racist than of fascism. The kind of “yes ethnic cleansing but please no mean language” attitude. Please get a political education and your priorities straight.
With your insults and condescension, you’re just proving my point.
Yeah I never doubted you’d have a reason to dismiss being called out like that. Getting your feelings hurt invalidates everything else. I feel like I’m talking to myself from 10 years ago.
You don’t have to take it from me. If you’re a student of history, maybe start with Umberto Eco. He knew a thing or two about fascism, I’ve heard.
The biggest mistake we can make is to assume it can’t happen again.
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Wow!
Of all companies, this is one I didn’t expect.
Damn.
Why would this be unexpected?
Proton already handed over the IP of a climate protester to authorities several years ago, while boasting that they had a no log policy.
https://therecord.media/protonmail-forced-to-collect-an-activists-ip-address-in-police-investigation
Every time, in the past few years, that I bring this up, everyone just acts like I’m setting an impossible standard and no alternative exists.
Proton has been shady for years.
the good news is this is a lesson to never trust any entity whose role in the world is to accumulate capital
What’s insane is that didn’t Proton just recently announce they were converting to a non-profit?
Yes, they did: https://proton.me/blog/proton-non-profit-foundation
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There is absolutely no way to verify any of Proton’s privacy claims. Why should I trust one for profit company over another?
Truly unhinged that they decided to come out on this. Fellas, you are fucking Swiss why throw yourself under the bus for the US election
Because terrible people literally can’t help themselves. Wait for people to show you who they truly are, they will…
You could look at infomaniak, but I didn’t have the best experience trying out (or even getting started with) their services. Finding a provider that has all of Proton’s apps is going to be tough (or at least it was from me while I was looking to escape from Tuta). Good luck, tho.
EDIT: Infomaniak is on F-Droid!
EDIT EDIT: Infomaniak is only available in Europe! Infomaniak is only available with a European phone number, so using a VPN won’t help! 🙁👎
Finding a provider that has all of Proton’s apps is going to be toug
Nobody should be using any provider as one stop shop… That’s how we got cooked by Google and Apple the first time folks.
Unbundle, mix and match…
Yeah it auck Proton did this but if you only got one proton service, it is eaiser to either do nothing or switch it.
I agree! I don’t use Proton’s VPN or their password manager for that reason. The equivalents I had in place already were fine and I didn’t feel the need to switch over everything, just some things.
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I will continue to use Proton and their services, not because I support or endorse any political decisions from the CEO/board members (and I don’t), but because they provide open source, secure, and private software that I love.
This is no different than arguing about using GrapheneOS based on the behavior of the maintainers.
If its open source, where’s the fork? Someone can provide “electron”. No, “quark”?
Oh no… I use Graphene… what’s the deal with the maintainers?
This video seemed to have been the start of an anti-GrapheneOS movement. I won’t get into details, because it’s been explained to death, but it’s here for your convenience.
I use and love GrapheneOS as well.
Thanks for the video, much appreciated. Never paid much attention to the project beyond their website… and I’m glad that’s as far as I’ve gone lol
Don’t bother videos against GrapheneOS. The lead of GrapheneOS has autism and he lacks social skills. This creates endless loop of hate talk between some YouTubers and GrapheneOS.
As a technical project, GOS is far superior and it is the most secure OS on the planet right now. The lead of the GOS has developed hardened malloc and various other security solutions that is now baked into GrapheneOS. So I would ask people to enjoy the project rather than stimulating more fuss against the project.
Heads up: autism isn’t a defense, it’s a condition.
“Proton? Why the fuck would he be mad at a WINE fork…?”
“… OH THE MAIL-”Phew! For a moment I thought you were talking about the steam compatibility thingy.
If that proton goes nazi, I am going straight to the farm
The CEO “apologized” this morning (after being duly chastised, I’m sure):
Hi all, last night, a post from last year from my personal X account suddenly became a topic of discussion here on Reddit. I want to share a few thoughts on this to provide clarity to the community on what is Proton’s policy on politics going forward.
First, while the X post was not intended to be a political statement, I can understand how it can be interpreted as such, and it therefore should not have been made. While we will not prohibit all employees from expressing personal political opinions publicly, it is something I will personally avoid in the future. I lean left on some issues, and right on other issues, but it doesn’t serve our mission to publicly debate this. It should be obvious, but I will say that it is a false equivalence to say that agreeing with Republicans on one specific issue (antitrust enforcement to protect small companies) is equal to endorsing the entire Republican party platform.
Second, officially Proton must always be politically neutral, and while we may share facts and analysis, our policy going forward will be to share no opinions of a political nature. The line between facts, analysis, and opinions can be blurry at times, but we will seek to better clarify this over time through your feedback and input.
The exception to these rules is on the topics of privacy, security, and freedom. These are necessarily political topics, where influencing public policy to defend these values, often requires engaging politically.
The operations of Proton have always reflected our neutrality. For example, recently we refused pressure to deplatform both Palestinian student groups and Zionist student groups, not because we necessarily agreed with their views, but because we believe more strongly in their right to have their own views.
It is also a legal guarantee under Swiss law, which explicitly prohibits us from assisting foreign governments or agencies, and allows us no discretion to show favoritism as Swiss law and Swiss courts have the final say.
The promise we make is that no matter your politics, you will always be welcome at Proton (subject of course to adherence to our terms and conditions). When it comes to defending your right to privacy, Proton will show no favoritism or bias, and will unconditionally defend it irrespective of the opinions you may hold.
This is because both Proton as a company, and Proton as a community, is highly diverse, with people that hold a wide range of opinions and perspectives. It’s important that we not lose sight of nuance. Agreeing/disagreeing with somebody on one point, rarely means you agree/disagree with them on every other point.
I would like to believe that as a community there is more that unites us than divides us, and that privacy and freedom are universal values that we can all agree upon. This continues to be the mission of the non-profit Proton Foundation, and we will strive to carry it out as neutrally as possible.
Going forward, I will be posting via u/andy1011000. Thank you for your feedback and inputs so far, and we look forward to continuing the conversation.
Original post: https://www.reddit.com/r/ProtonMail/comments/1i2nz9v/on_politics_and_proton_a_message_from_andy/
Am I being paranoid when I notice that the binary at the end of his username translates to 88?
No, 88 is not a bad number. “88” is pronounced like “發發” in Taiwanese, which means ‘making fortune’. And you might also see Taiwanese people using “168” in their usernames, as it has similar meaning.
This is cool info. I also wonder, looking at his picture, if he was born in 1988. No idea, but hey.
88 is typically used either on its own, or in full as 1488 by neo nazis and fascists. It’s a dog whistle.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourteen_Words
On its own, it can be used accidentally, such as if you have 88 in your username because you were born in '88, but if paired with other behavioral patterns it can become damning.
Sure, it could be. I wasn’t defending him.
Just please don’t think most of us using “88” or “888” for hinting Nazis, and “666” for praying Satan.Well, like anything, it depends on context. In this context, it’s not crazy to be on high alert for weird politicized signals.
However, I think you made a pretty good point about its meaning in Taiwan given that this fellow is apparently from there, combined with it being his year of birth. So, context decides and in this case at least it seems pretty ordinary.
For sure. Context absolutely matters, ans the context here doesn’t establish a pattern from my understanding. So in this case it’s unlikely to be a dog whistle.
But people should still be aware of what the 88/1448 dog whistle looks like.
I still think about that person who got banned from league for their name being Corona1488 and their last name was Corona and they were born on Jan 4th, 1988. I’m surprised they went so long without learning the connotations.
Someone in the comments there make a good point:
It is so disingenuous to say “last year” when it was a little more than a month ago.
His excuse that the social media team posted it from the official account instead of his account is farcical. This whole thing is too bad a taste in my mouth.
To say “I made an apolitical statement last year” when we can verify that the statement was both political and within 30 days is bizarre. He thinks we’re idiots, to boot.
Am I being paranoid when I notice that the binary at the end of his username translates to 88?
Well, there’s a good possibility that he might have been born in 1988. If not, then that doesn’t look very good.
Personally, I think he’d be an extremely unusual neo-nazi, given his background. So perhaps a bit of Occam’s Razor should be applied here.
In the comments of the post, he says that 88 is the year he was born.
He was born in 1988. Quick, get the pitchforks.
Ref: inc.com article says he was 33 at time of publishing the article in 2021.
First, while the X post was not intended to be a political statement
Not intended to be a political statement? Even setting aside agreement vs disagreement, how is this (below) not a political statement?
10 years ago Republicans were the party of big business and Dems stood for the little guys, but today the tables have completely turned.
Again, regardless of whether you agree or disagree it’s like a textbook example of a political statement.
It doesn’t mention or women or other minorities, so it’s barely political.
Wow, such a generic nonpology.
Oh, I’m so, so sorry I was caught red-handed. I apologize for anything you guys blame me for, please keep using your product.
Not defending the 88, he could be a racist, but he’s apparently from Taiwan. It is a common number in Chinese culture, guessing Taiwan too. Where I live there have been a couple of businesses with “88” in the name and both were Chinese.
Remember when businesses stayed the fuck out of politics so they didn’t alienate their customers because they like money? Pepperidge Farms remembers.
Taking a neutral stance is also political;<br> Also when people say that “they don’t like politics in X,Y&Z” they mean politics that they don’t agree with
I’ve been very happy with disroot.org, but you have to do your own encryption (I use Thunderbird).
I think I pay $10 per year for 5 GB, but they have a free plan.
I’ve been using Runbox for many years and it’s weird i don’t see recommendations.
Server location? Pricing? Encryption? User friendliness?
https://runbox.com/price-plans/
The cheapest option is like 20 dollars a year. I think I have the middle one. Not sure, it’s been on that for years. I’m pretty sure it’s the cheapest privacy oriented one. I tried several since then but I always end up back on runbox.
Server location is Sweden. Which was a major reason for me, outside of 9 eyes (I don’t remember, I researched a lot before getting it but the details are forgotten).
I think they don’t encrypt? Not sure. This was never that important to me. It was more about server location, privacy respecting and open source friendly.
I don’t like their runbox7 though. Luckily it doesn’t seem like they will ever disable runbox6. It’s old school but reliable and fast. Runbox 7 is too full of feature and issues for me. You can easily toggle which email system you’re seeing or loging into.
Oh yeah, and runbox6 is super user friendly. It’s old style with just what you expect. Runbox 7 may be more depending on who you’re asking. It’s not for me, since it’s too many icons and too little text.
Oh, and about trustworthy, it’s more than I thought it could be. Every issue I had was quickly answered by one of the founders, who was super helpful and honest, even where it doesn’t help them. When my domain expire I’m going to let them handle it. I didn’t want to leave all eggs in one basket, but I even told him, they are the only company I would trust with this.
After all interactions I had wit them, they are literally the only company I trust. But that took years.
Server location is in Norway. It’s a small company that specializes in email hosting and it’s fully owned by their emplyees.
Here’s a summary of their privacy policy:
-Norwegian ShieldAll your Runbox email is privacy protected because our servers are located in Norway, and 1. Runbox strictly adheres to the Norwegian privacy legislation.
-Runbox protects your data against disclosure with our procedure to require a Norwegian court order before any data can be disclosed.
-Any foreign nation requesting disclosure of data must send a formal request via diplomatic channels to Norwegian authorities, to which Runbox responds with a request for a court order.
-Norwegian surveillance authorities are not allowed to access transferred electronic messages without a court order.
-Under Norwegian legislation, Runbox is ordinarily not required to retain any traffic logs, and is permitted to delete your data if you ask us to.
-To protect your privacy even further, Runbox does NOT use Google Analytics or any other third-party tracking of our customers’ usage. We never use data or traffic information for any other purpose than anonymous statistics in order to improve our services and our system’s performance. Our service is absolutely ad-free, and we do not share or sell your personal details to anyone.
They strive to be as transparent as possible and everyone can read their public Privacy Transparency Report.
Norway! Yes, sorry!
Like I said my memory is hazy with the research I did many years ago. I just remember it’s not in the 9 eyes.
The last part was also important. Back then it didn’t even need javascript. I think runbox6 still doesn’t.
Anyway, I like them and I hope they got more users. My only concern is of them going bankrupt. But many years later they are still here.
I’ll still continue using proton, as I haven’t seen them staying from their goal just yet, but I’d love to see some alternatives non the less.
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As a Brit, I’m not offended by the Proton CEO’s post. I don’t like Donald Trump BUT I do like that he has hired someone who should be tough on tech anti-trust moves. This is very important.
Americans can be obsessed with their electoral system, but the rest of us don’t have to pretend to support the Democrats or Republicans. I don’t necessarily agree with all of Andy Yen’s take regarding the two parties, but I’m not offended enough by it to boycott Proton, certainly not based on one tweet. I can also see the pragmatic benefit to his position by massaging trumps well known fragile ego.
Hint: everything trump says is a lie. His new crony is NOT going to be “tough on big tech” as the toddler traitor says.
What he actually means is they’re going to use the government to destroy our privacy and freedom of speech, whilst simultaneously stealing every red cent they can from our pockets.
You gotta read between the lies with that dipshit.
