Shout them down in every space, make them embarrased to think the stupid shit they think.
If we don’t embarrass and correct them now we will have to kill them later when they come for our friends and families.
Does that go for liberal or philosophical ideals like free speech?
I come across a bit of rhetoric identifying free speech as a right-wing authoritarian cause, arguing that they “claim, twist, poison, ruin” it, so it’s fine to give it up and no longer defend it.
Those rhetoricians seem to have a skewed or ahistorical disregard for the advances in political philosophy from the enlightenment era that got society out of the dark ages, away from authoritarianism & toward political plurality & liberal democracy. Freedom of speech was a foundational development & its growth enabled the civil rights movements that followed.
Yet according to the rhetoric, it’s a problem now that right-wing authoritarians claim it as part of their cause. They’ll just let them claim & define it, and now that free speech is wrong (since they let right-wingers “have” it), it’s okay to limit & undermine it.
One might think they’re right-wing authoritarians in disguise trying to dupe everyone into threatening the foundations of liberal society. Whether or not they are, there’s a good chance they’ll show up here possibly in response to this comment.
Is there a name for that type of rhetoric or the people who argue it?
Anyway, it all seems like capitulation to me. I think letting fascists claim such philosophical ideals is a mistake.
Free Speech is the right to have and express opinions without being repressed by the government. Yelling fire in a theatre is not an opinion any more than harassing people with racial slurs or other forms of flatulence.
Nobody is giving free speech to fascists. Ignorant assholes are misappropriating the term to justify their disgusting behaviour and they’re the only one’s falling for it.
The (direct) harm principle of free speech has been recognized since at least J S Mill. It’s reflected in legal limitations on incitement of imminent lawless action (falsely shouting fire); incitement of violence; defamation; discriminatory acts that objectively deprive peaceful access to rights, opportunities, or resources we are entitled to. It does not restrict merely offensive conduct that bothers.
Are you referring to harassment in the looser sense of merely irritating conduct or in the stricter sense of personally targeted conduct that is unwelcome & objectively harms or deprives peaceful access as mentioned before (often through persistence)? We don’t have a right not to be offended.
Freedom of speech is specifically for speech we dislike including much that you listed. It’s also for speech to oppose that, which could be taken much further instead of trying to compromise it.
People who support only “free speech” they agree with don’t support free speech at all. They either never understood free speech, or believe it’s not worth it, thus give it away to the authoritarians exactly like I criticized.
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Plus they associate war with masculinity and magic with femininity, and their main guy is the god of both. Women fought and men learned magic. Clearly gender was a pretty flexibly concept. (Not to even mention that we found what appears to be trans masc viking burials.)
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What buried site was that?
Birka grave Bj 581
For a second I feared Lemmy didn’t have the “Save comment” function yet.
F the fascists
They already took Doge
I don’t know man, Satanism is pretty fucking stupid.
You’re pretty fucking stupid.Educate yourself.I’m familiar with this version - it’s still a bit silly, but I understand it’s more of a pressure group than anything, and I can see where they’re coming from.
I love how butthurt they become when you call them fascist. They’re perfect fine invading spaces they don’t belong in, but the moment somebody labels them correctly, they lose their shit
They already killed hip-hop.
Could you elaborate on this? I mean there’s Kanye obviously, but “killing hip hop” is a strong statement considering he fell off years ago.
The culture of “real” hip-hop is basically crime culture, within that crime culture the same methods of of fascist control are used. Like the way rappers attack one another and try to control people. Gangs intertwined with the culture. Gangs are fascist, they are Nazis, they abuse people for their own personal gains. Rappers are often a voice for that sort of shitty behavior.
Just listen to any “gangster rap” they are all authoritarians raping other people’s lives.
(Very generalized)
There’s a conspiracy theory going around that the music industry execs colluded to heavily promote gangsta rap over social-conscious rap during the 90’s, so that young black people would turn to a life of crime and fill up prisons, as they had recently invested in the nascent private prison industry.
The only “proofs” are anonymous testimonies by self-described industry insiders, but the fact that rap wasn’t always about gangsta culture is real.
If you told me that Suge Knight was responsible for the Lindbergh baby kidnapping, I’d believe you.
Honestly I fully believe it, especially since black people who get into music are pushed towards Rap and Hip Hop by their labels being told “This is the only black music that will sell”
Women of all colors have similar things done with them, usually getting pushed into love songs.
https://youtu.be/uAq6RjSuwXQ - Korn actually made a music video with black celebrities as stand-ins for the band solely to send the message of “If we were black, this song couldn’t exist because the industry is just that racist.”
And I think it’s common knowledge that the song “Love Song”, was specifically in rebellion to the artist in question being told that women HAVE to do love songs.
Gangsta rap culture has its roots in generational poverty and the Reagan-inflicted crack epidemic.
“Very generalized” uhh, can you give some examples? Like, maybe if you squint at the 90’s West Coast/East Coast rivalry, but not really?
Fuck that shit. Listen to Danny, Tech, RTJ. Fucking MF DOOM and Ace Rock if you want to go back. Hip hop is punk as fuck and anti fascist.
I guess we can let them keep Tesla…
Nazis can have Trapt. That’s what they can have.
I agree with this. That singer is a mega douche anyway. One of the most hilarious things I’ve seen was a few years back when he was trying to beef with Ice-T on Twitter, and Ice just kept calling him “Mr. Trapt” and it sent him off the fucking edge.
They can have nothing.
I’m willing to let then have Nickleback.
The joke you think you’re making isn’t funny actually.
Let them have nothing
You seem fun.
Nazi punks FUCK OFF!
They already tried to take punk and punk said “no”.
You got one downvote. That asshole is either in the wrong discussion and doesn’t know their music or is a Nazi cock gobbler and needs to wipe the orange off their lips.
this goes for most ideologies, really
Nah, other ideologies create things and can do more than just appropriate.
Fascists haven’t created anything cultural since Leni Reifenstahl. And she was a documentarist.
For Fascists all imagery and symbols are merely empty signifiers for nostalgia, a mythologised past, and a sense of belonging.
No, it really doesn’t. Nazism is uniquely disingenuous and predatory by its nature.
They aren’t predators. They’re parasites.
I’m okay with letting them have Christianity though.
Not real Christianity though. Not the one where people feed people and help others. Don’t forget Prez Carter and Mr. Roger’s were both that kind of Christian. They can have the Jerry Falwell style bullshit.
You don’t need Christianity to be a good person. And it has enables too many people to do terrible things. Not sure you can split it into real/fake.
I don’t. But some people do. If it brings out the good in them, where’s the harm? And yes, there is real and fake. Real is following the actual actual teachings, fake is using them for self gain.
“Real is following the actual teachings”
I think I’ve heard this one for another religion, didn’t end up great for the people (especially women)
I thought we were talking about Christianity. You can move goalposts, but that’s a different game.
If you want to defend pedophiles, there’s truth social you can go to.
Are you seriously saying Mr. Roger’s was a pedophile?
That seems fair, christianity has done enough in terms of sexism, racism, homophobia, genocide, pedophilia, … no need to point out others religions
You also don’t need Christianity to be a bad person. There are many other non-religious excuses for doing bad things.
But my childhood church said that Carter and Rogers weren’t real christians. Mr Rogers never would have advised I follow the bible’s instructions to marry my rapist, for example.
I’ve heard “cherry picking” used a lot to deride christians for not following the bible, but I absolutely want people to be fake christians and only follow the feel good parts. I don’t want people to be devout and take things on faith, I want them to question what they’re told. I don’t want the real christians who follow the bible as closely as possible. I want them to acknowledge that the bible has some horrible stuff in it that nobody should listen to.
They can have nothing.
Is there a conservative punk rock movement?
Like the broader skinhead movement, Oi! was originally just a punk subgenre, but now a lot of people only affiliate them with fascists. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oi!
Testing link correction
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oi!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oi!
Ah it wanted the hyperlink syntax, actually seems sound design
Yes.
It’s exactly as mid and soulless as you’d think.
I’m guessing they aren’t very self-aware either.
They never are
the bigger thing right now is people being purposefully obtuse and treating “punk” as the same thing as “counter culture.”
conservatives are using this argument to state that they are the REAL punks because they are anti-establishment (while somehow holding all branches of the government but whatever)
in their mind punk people change their political ideologies to whatever is the opposite of who is in power, and so clearly all existing punks had to flip to the other side the second obama was elected or something.
(I’m a second generation punk on both sides and my whole family would curb stomp these asshats)
You’re a purebred punk?
in the same way that a child of two goldendoodles is a purebred goldendoodle i guess lol
I hope you’re smarter than a goldendoodle.
Conservatives have never and will never be the punk, because punk is a counterculture movement against cultural conservatism, not who is in office at any given time. Punk has always been about cultural freedom, and conservatism is about cultural restriction.
One of the best examples of conservatives’ superficial understanding of counterculture was during the 2020 elections in Philadelphia, when some Boomers wrapped themselves in flags outside a polling place and danced to RATM “Killing in the Name”. They heard the words “fuck you I won’t do what you tell me”, and decided that it represented THEM, while discarding the rest of the lyrics and the entire meaning of the song.
They do this with all media, from music to books to movies and TV. Their understanding and interpretation of art begins and ends at the surface level.
It almost made me cry with joy when racists in UK were opossed by classic anti fascist punk guys with spiked hair during the riots last year. I hade no idea these guys were still around.
The Red Warriors need to make a comeback.
What do you think “Nazi punks fuck off” was for?
I thought it was for the conservative/neo-nazi/fascist fans I didn’t think there were actual bands.
dead kennedys made it their opener at live shoes because neo nazis would show up to their concerts
I don’t think they really ever steal cultures like that?
Which culture did they ever take and appropriate?
Miniature wargaming… 40K is especially fascy.
They’ve tried for punk subculture.
Been pretty successful with metal subculture.
Online nerd-subculture.
I’m sure there are many more… They’re in the op pic after all.
So Nazis are taking miniature wargaming?
Yes. It’s been quite a big thing last 10 years or so.
Unironically supporting the supremacy of the Big E, purity of the human species, and fascism of the Emperium. Like folks missing the irony in Verhoven’s Starship Troopers.
That doesn’t make any sense. If I write a sci Fi story about space Nazis, that doesn’t mean Nazis are taking over literature.
I don’t think the person you’re replying to is accusing the authors of being Nazis. There are people out there who will support fascist characters in their favourite fictional universes, and when they go to social events like tabletop tournaments they’ll bring a lot of talking points that are very close to fascism with them
Yes, that happens in all areas and situations in life, but that has nothing to do with Nazis infiltrating anything.
I wonder if maybe the phrase “Nazis infiltrating” is ascribing it too much intention in your mind?
People with awful views on the world appear in all sorts of hobbies, you’re right, and that’s sort of what I mean by co-opting or infiltrating; it might not always be a concerted sneaky plan, but these people turn up in spaces with other people and are so disagreeable that it pushes everyone else away.
Skinheads and oï weren’t nazis at first (and still aren’t for some part)
In some places, the SHARPs are the only skinheads around, which is nice.
I don’t think people think of Nazis when they see runes.
Then that’s out of ignorance.
Football perhaps, maybe football away games. All the trouble that some hooligans cause abroad. Thankfully football might be too big to fail, but they do give it a bad vibe at the worst of times.
Football? I don’t think people think of Nazis when they watch football
Then you need to do a little bit of reading and then come back.
I can do no reading and still be 100% right that people watching football are in large majority not Nazis.
Ah so you’re missing the point then. Is it ignorance or purposeful, I wonder.
Maybe you should work on the presentation of your point. Or maybe you should work on your listening skills and try to understand my point?
Or is it purposeful, I wonder?
I’ll take your imitation as flattering.
It’s the entire point about Nazi appropriation of subcultures that you’re missing, not any single point I’ve made.
They’ve stolen and appropriated every symbol they have, from the swastika and the iron cross to pepe the frog.
Swastika is not a culture. A cross is a cross. Pepe?
Swastika is not a culture.
If you have a Wiki link or comment, curious if any culture has ever been stolen.
(just speaking to parent commenter here, not making a declaration - trying to understand the perspective & outta my element)
I’m not sure what you mean. What I’m talking about is from the original post. Nazis won’t take over satanism, black metal, punk, beer(wtf!!?) or anything else like that. It doesn’t work like that.
Gotcha, thanks.
Are there historical examples of non-Nazis stealing culture in a really full way? (okie lemme Wiki that in the meantime btw)
Transparently: curious to assess what would constitute cultural theft by your standards. I’m not married to anything in this topic, so don’t have any canned attack on my clipboard or anything heh. And I’ll learn :)
My understanding is that a group infiltrates a culture to the point the culture becomes synonymous with it.
Otherwise there is no real point to it. Of course there are a lot of nazi people listening to hard rock. They are usually young men that would listen to hard rock no matter what their political view. But you can’t say hard rock is Nazi.
In the US, Norse Pagan is getting kinda white supremacy-y.
The ADL didn’t call Elon’s salute a hate symbol, I think we can rule out their expertise at the moment. Also: “Non-racist pagans may also use this symbol, so one should carefully examine it in context rather than assume that a particular use of the symbol is racist.”
If a Nazi says the sky is blue, that doesn’t make it green
But here’s another possible source, from a location that would know.
https://sites.uab.edu/humanrights/2021/04/02/uncovering-hate-revealing-not-so-secret-hate-symbols/
Im pretty sure I’ve heard the term „goth maga“ before so there is that…
Edit: and I just looked it up and now I feel sick. They already have a website and everything. So yeah, there is that.
You’re underselling the cringe. It was “dark, gothic MAGA”
That’s not gonna stick. Maga are not cultured people. They don’t listen to music, they don’t delve into self reflection, they aren’t thinking about meaning and the universe. There is no art there.
Sure there are a few people here and there, that will make a website, but that’s not gonna hold.
Skinhead culture.
Ok, but that’s the only one and even there, the presence of nationalism was there almost from the start.
How about the republican party in the USA?
That’s not about over taking a culture.
Yes it is.
It’s not the same as expecting a group to take over punk rock.
You’re right, it’s way more dangerous.
Even the swastika was co-opted by them.
Literally everything in the original post.
Punk Rock and black metal? I don’t know, I listen to a lot of that and I get rarely hear any Nazis making such music. Of course there are bands like that, but there are also some gay Nazis and we aren’t taking about Nazis appropriateing gayness.
You listen to a lot of black metal and are not aware of the Nazi problem? Come on some of the most well known black metal bands have Nazis in them everybody knows varg is a nazi.
Black metal has a whole nazi subgenre NSBM you have to be blind to not realize black metal has a nazi problem.
Then I’m blind. I don’t know what to tell you. There are also gay Nazis, but that doesn’t mean gay people have a Nazi problem.
They’re not comparable. Being a Nazi is a choice, like listening to Pantera. Being gay is not a choice, like being born with brown skin.
No comparison will be completely comparable. I’m trying to picture that the op is absurd.
Nazis don’t take over and steal cultures. They don’t take over any musical genre and just because there are some nazis that like anime, doesn’t mean anime is Nazi. That’s just simple a fallacy and I can’t comprehend why there are so many people arguing with me about it.
This is different than any group having the potential to have Nazis and you know it.
When burzum one of the most well known black metal bands has a Nazi as its sole musician and its just accepted along with many other bands having straight up self admitted Nazis there is a fucking nazi problem. Most genres of music are not like this. This is like saying oh black metal isn’t anti-Christian every group of people has christian haters there are only a few church burnings no big deal.
The first wave of black metal didn’t have as much Nazis as the 2nd wave the Nazis infiltrated
black metal is not inherently nazi but it does have a lot of Nazis in it black metal still has a nazi problem.
Nazis do steal cultures they have been doing it since the beginning the swastica wasn’t originally a symbol of hate the Nazis took it
Yes it is. I can compare gala apples to kanzi apples.
The reason so many people are arguing with you about it is that you are wrong. You should accept that first, and then you can grow as a person. It’s quite liberating.
They can have ska.
I love ska especially punk ska
Booo!!!
Some ska for your fucking stupid gob.
Yeah that’s just a bit ska but there’s a bunch of revolutionary ska punk and it wrecks face.
Over my dead fucking body.
Alright. If you want it, you’re gonna have to skank for it.
They can have nothing
Yep. I don’t even want them to have country and I don’t listen to any modern country.
A Caribbean genre revived by black marginalized youth in the formerly imperialist Thatcher’s UK? Are you …sure?
It’s a joke about ska being shitty.
But that scene has also had its own issues with Nazis.
Even this I would deny them.
I agree it seems harsh, but remember that these are Nazis.
Angry Oi! skin noises
