As someone who’s 23 and grew up with smartphones and all of that as they were starting to become popular I feel like I have some takes on a lot of the opinions I’ve seen on the different sides of issues like this. I lean in general towards giving your kid a phone once they’re old enough to want to be able to talk with friends and do things on their own afterschool but having some non-intrusive ways to keep an eye on what they’re doing with it until sometime when they’re a teenager. That just seems like the best way to not ostracize them from other kids while still making sure they’re being safe online. Even though in general things worked out fine for me with my parents letting me have my own laptop and iPod touch and eventually iPhone from a pretty young age without really watching what I did on them I definitely see a lot of times that I could have ended up being taken advantage of online if things had been slightly different. And the reason I say non-intrusive ways to keep track of what your kid is doing is because I knew kids who did have like parental restrictions on their phones and all of them knew ways to bypass them and do what they wanted to do anyways. So the only way you’re gonna successfully keep an eye on them is if they don’t know you are and you only interfere if it’s a genuine safety problem, and even then you make sure to not punish them for it as that will make them start hiding things from you actively, you treat it as a learning moment and help them understand why what they were doing wasn’t safe. I’m still very much figuring out what my exact views on this are but I think leaning too far in either direction of not letting them have social media or a smartphone at all even when they’re starting to reach middle school or letting them have unrestricted access to social media and a phone both have their problems and you have to find a good balance in the middle.
Well I certainly understand the pros of this but is training your kid to have a dopamine response everytime a notification comes in and buzzes their arm is dangerous, no? It’s like training the kid to always want that feeling for the rest of their life
In five years: “After global ban of smart watches in schools, parents are increasingly turning to bodyguards and private chaperones”.
Why are parents so desperate to track their kids? Don’t they trust them?
We had a problem with our oldest not coming home on time. So we asked them, and they didn’t have a way to keep track of time. So we got them a cheap Casio and the problem is solved. They love the watch, and independence, and trust.
When we give our kids a phone, it won’t have any restrictions, because it means we trust them. We don’t, so we’re holding off. I’m unwilling to spy on them, so they’ll get a phone when I trust them without filters.
I’m already teaching mine to hide his tracks better, to only steal from companies if you have to and can get away with it, not neighbors or your avg person who worked hard for their stuff.
Yeah right. I’m going to try every spy trick in the book so they learn some goddamn common sense.
And they’ll just learn they can’t trust you. So instead of coming to you when they have a problem, they’ll go to someone else, probably online. That sounds way worse than them failing and coming to you for help.
I mean, I’m just going to do it as a dad joke, like set their background as my face so they learn to lock their device.
Lol, ok that would be funny. But if it’s completely under your control, that novelty would wear off quickly and they’d quickly stop trusting you.
Changes text alert to fart noise
I trust my kids. I don’t trust random weirdos that hang around schools though
What are you worried those “random weirdos” are going to do? I also haven’t seen those weirdos that you claim are so ubiquitous, the people who hang around schools are kids who go there.
A “random weirdo” doesn’t want anything to do with your kids. If you look at the stats, the vast majority of crimes against children are from family members or close friends, as in, the people who would be texting your child on their phone/watch.
I also haven’t seen those weirdos that you claim are so ubiquitous, the people who hang around schools are kids who go there.
Well look at you, Mr. Anecdote!
Now I’m worried that you think my kids go to the same school as your kids. Or City. Or Country. Hell, even continent
If I was legitimately worried about wierdos hanging around my kids’ school, I’d move them to a different school. Giving them a phone or smart watch won’t fix that problem.
I grew up in Suburban hell but I also don’t recall that being a thing that existed in my time or place, then again everything so isolated I wouldn’t have noticed even if that was a thing. Don’t let corporations continue to destroy our communities by selling fear
Kids need trust. They don’t mature without room to fuck up or succeed
True. It ends up building resentment and delaying maturity
Exactly! And they will screw up, so it’s important to let them fail frequently while the stakes are low instead of putting it off until the stakes are high.
You seem like a great parent! I’m personally leaning towards giving them dumb phones once they have to take public transport to school, for the convenience of them being able to inform me when they miss the bus or want to have lunch at a friend’s. But who knows if or when I’ll even have kids, lol. Maybe things will change in that time.
Yeah, that’s my take as well. When they need one, we’ll start simple. If they do well with that, we’ll expand to a smartphone, again, when they need it (maps and whatnot).
Right now, my kids don’t need it since we take them to/from school (charter school), but the oldest will be changing schools soon to the local public school, so they may need one for after school activities. I’m not giving them something because their friends have it (theirs do), I’ll give them something because they need/earned it.
Good god, that makes too much sense! Away with you, we need to implant tracking devices in our offspring and I’ll hear nothing else on the matter
Good, kids are super easy to rob.
This has been so good for me and my kid. If they are out and feel like they need adult help, we are a watch tap away. If they want to come home early from a friend’s house, send me a code and I’m there. If they want to go to their friend’s house after school, I’m a text away.
We have a no phone until you’re 13 rule so while the watch is a stripped down phone, it’s not a phone so easy for us all to understand, plus it’s already stripped down, no hassle no fuss.
What a weird rule. You are intentionally destroying your kid’s social, developmental, and interpersonal opportunities because you’re unwilling to actually put in the time to parent.
The least you could do is give them a dumb phone, so they are ostracized less. Or better yet, actually teach and parent them how to use a phone, and then give them a phone with locked down permissions to block tiktok/etc that are actually problematic, while still allowing them access to things that allow them to relate to friends and their community. Trust but verify.
You are really telling everyone how little you know about parenting. This is what parenting looks like. You parent the kids you have with the skills and tools available. It doesn’t look the same for everyone.
You should probably sit back down.
They are parenting. This is what parenting looks like. You don’t just give them everything they want. Sure, you can also choose to give them a phone, and you can choose to lock it down. You can also choose to give them nothing. Parenting is about making those decisions for your child. It isn’t about listening to random people tell you stupid things online who act like they’re more knowledgeable about your situation.
Parenting is about making the best choices you can for your children, not simply making choices for your children. And I never said to give them everything they want. To take the example to the extreme, you could certainly give your kids ‘nothing’ in regards to food, but that’s not parenting, that’s child abuse via starvation. Obviously giving your kid access to a phone is not ANYWHERE near equivalent to access to food, but it illustrates the point- parenting is not simply deciding things for your kids, including what they get. You need to do your best to support them into becoming the best them, and that includes giving them social opportunities. In a perfect world, yes, absolutely, phones would be something you give to a kid maybe in highschool, or even when they leave the house, but only when you decide they deserve the privilege, but this isn’t that world. Phones aren’t just privileged toys- they’re the expected (and in some cases only) methods of communication and connection for people. We can sit here and argue whether or not that’s a good thing or not- I personally think it isn’t, and as someone that’s forced to be on-call 24/7/365 I think I have a pretty good grasp on the matter- but it’s where we’re currently at, and unfortunately we have to work in that structure even if and as we’re potentially trying to change it. Give your kids the opportunities, even while explaining the problems and why they need changed, you know?
The fact is, the dude says in another comment that s/he is intentionally trying to socially isolate their kids to ‘protect them’ which is textbook helicopter/overcontrolling parent and deeply fucks kids up for life. S/He literally outright says they want their kids to cleanly break from ‘friendship drama’ and the literal outside world. That’s… words cannot describe how concerning that sounds.
Well you clearly don’t have kids, and if you do, you sound like the shitty parent lol
What an odd, incorrect assumption. Kids need to be able to socialize. This isn’t the 1980s anymore, you can’t just go to a mall, there are very few physical third spaces anymore, literally none in some locations.
For a lot of kids, those third spaces are via phone/online. I can absolutely understand wanting to limit exposure to bad influences of phones, that IS good parenting, but you need to offer alternatives, or managed use, or something, or you’re socially isolating your kid. Worst case scenario, you’re getting them bullied- kids can be cruel (though from what I’ve seen, not as much as they used to be, thankfully).
The person literally said in another comment:
Yes, it’s part of set them up to succeed not fail. And another part of it is I want them to have a clean break from the outside world, from friendship drama or clinginess, from school stuff, etc.
Now, I’m assuming this is partially a situation of english not being the first language, from some of the grammar, but wanting to have their kids be ‘cleanly’ broken away from friendships, school stuff, and the very outside world sounds… look, I’m going to be frank here, their literal goal seems to be socially stunting their kid via helicoptering.
Kids need to learn who they are. You’re not trying to raise someone to be a child, you’re trying to raise someone to be a healthy, functioning adult, and part of that means going through friendships, even friendship drama, exploring the outside world, etc etc.
One of the malls near me recently made it against the rules to be there if you’re under 18 without supervision of someone over 21, with the wristband enforcement and everything. It’s literally impossible to socialize outside anymore because everyone hated teenagers and wanted to get them off their lawn. And now they’re all inside because that’s the only place left for them and now they still aren’t happy. We need better places online and offline for kids and teens to socialize because this is getting ridiculous
Yeah, they’ve done that at the malls near me as well. Surprise surprise, 3 of them have closed down and the fourth is a ghost town.
Basically every store in the place is some kind of crystals-and-juju or retirement-scam place, along with somehow a ton of phone case booths?
When I was a kid (might be dating myself here) there was music shops, arcades, bookstores, food, all kinds of shit.
I can’t remember enjoying going to the mall either and I guess I assumed that was because I wasn’t into clothes because gender dysphoria but I suppose there were actually reasons people liked to go to the mall. My experience growing up in Suburbia was that it was completely socially dead
Basically adults hated teenagers and kids so they banned them from everywhere and then they still want happy and now they’re angry at kids staying inside all day because they destroyed outside. Destroy the possibility of having a normal social life and then go after the consolation prize too just despite them. You know the same assholes that want to take away kids phones aren’t going to consent to any kind of urban planning changes to make it easier for them to have offline friends
You:
Kids need to be able to socialize.
OP:
If they are out and feel like they need adult help, we are a watch tap away. If they want to come home early from a friend’s house, send me a code and I’m there. If they want to go to their friend’s house after school, I’m a text away.
Sounds like they’re socializing.
A good point, but I’ll note that most socialization for kids these days doesn’t necessarily happen at a singular friend’s house- it’s typically in a private chat/channel/group/etc online.
I feel bad for your children then
For getting to experience life instead of being locked in a house, only able to interact with family?
I think you’re interpreting way too much into that person’s post. And wrongly too.
I am, admittedly, basing some of this off other posts the guy has made in this… err, thread? Post? Not sure what the lemmy vocab is here, but I can quote it:
And another part of it is I want them to have a clean break from the outside world, from friendship drama or clinginess, from school stuff, etc.
I dunno about you man, but kids probably don’t need protected from friendships, even if they might have the occasional drama… and ‘the outside world’ comment just concerns me.
Lots of assholes want this because they don’t want their kid being exposed to outside influence because they are crazy Christians
13? How many of their friends have phones because I would assume their using phones, just not one you gave them and I know from experience other parents do not do the most basic of filtering in their kids devices.
hey! who let this kid on Lemmy?
don’t their parents know we’re a bunch of fucking sexual deviants hell bent on the overthrowing of our oligarchic overlords?!
For what it’s worth I’m 28 and I agree with them. Being able to communicate online was the only thing that kept me alive through my teen years and if anything I needed more quality social opportunities online not less.
you can’t possibly compare your experience from 20 years ago to what children can experience online today.
I know what was going on online then because I was around your age now then.
I’ve been where you were. I was on forums and BBSs when I was 12. Had my parents knew what I was doing at 12, they would have stopped it immediately.
I had a GF online at 13 years old. she was 20. know how fucked up that shit is?
today, that kind of shit is even more prevalent. So no, at least for my kids, they won’t get phones or smart watches or tablets that they can take into their rooms. alone. at night.
being able to communicate does not require access to a personal device. I have a house phone, I have a PC available to them. I block all major social media platforms on the network. by allowing a device the ability to circumvent those protections I have put in place, I only negate my own hard work.
20 years ago I was eight, I am thinking more of when I was 15. So we’re talking 10 years ago not 20
That’s why I sent my kid here! To be radicalised!
… but my kid is a cat…and has no opposable thumbs…and he was already an asshole…wtf am I doing with my life…
None of their friends have phones.
I’m pretty sure the goal behind the no phone rule is not that utilizing a phone is inherently bad, but that you’re trying to avoid building the habits and behavior that comes with having a smart phone on you, like doom scrolling, constant social media access, constant distraction etc. And in that case, the kid having some limited access to other kids phones (If they even do. Who among any of us just lets someone else use our phone unrestricted) isn’t going to undermine that effort.
The raise your child to use a device appropriately. Waiting until they are a teenager is far too late to form the appropriate habits around self limiting screen time.
I get that no one wants to blame the device but this is clearly a parenting issue and I say this as someone who has on average raised far more children than anyone in my generation.
But go ahead and lean into the articles that blame on the evil algorithms and the evil corporations. Personal and parental responsibility is hard anx blaming outside influences is easy.
Raise your children or someone else will do it for you.
I am a living breathing example of a kid who got a phone at 17, I had a bit of a honeymoon period with it, had lots of fun and distraction, but eventually got used to it and actually use it for organising my schoolwork to do list, check the weather and my daily schedule.
I do tend to use social media on it, but only on the bus, since that’s usually when I don’t have anything else to do. I self limit my screen time pretty well, usually only 30 mins to an hour total per day, and I’ve always had all my devices without parental control systems, since my parents never knew how to set them up.
Also, you saying it’s never about algorithms designed to siphon your attention is inherently incorrect of a statement. They literally have hundreds of data metrics to effectively lock you into staring at the screen mindlessly, although parenting also has a part to play, since you also should teach your child on how to control their attention and harness it to actually do something fulfilling, though many parents don’t know how to.
Waiting until they are a teenager is far too late to form the appropriate habits around self limiting screen time.
Given that smartphones didn’t even exist until I was a teenager, going to go ahead and call bullshit on that.
this is clearly a parenting issue
Sure is. Too many parents handing their developing children smartphones long before they should. Luckily OP hasn’t made that mistake.
And nobody needs articles to tell them the corporations and algorithms are evil. Some of us are old enough to have lived through the advent of them.
Exactly. I see kids walking to elementary school staring at a smartphone. Why? What could they possibly need a smartphone for?
I’m not sure when we’ll give our kids phones, but certainly not in elementary school. I might start them on a flip phone in middle school/junior high (like 12-13yo) so they can text, and probably give them a PC as well around that time for intro to SM so they can keep up w/friends. But a smartphone isn’t happening for a while. Until then, if they need a phone, I’ll have one they can borrow.
Raise your child to smoke meth appropriately.
But they are raising their children.
Without a phone.
The algorithms have been proven to be addictive. Do you really think Facebook is your friend? You are their product, not their consumer.
Yes there are a multitude of reasons, not least that filtering only does so much and constant surveillance is unrealistic.
As well as unhealthy. Why give your kid a device if you don’t trust them with it?
That’s my standard. Either I trust them with the device, or I don’t, and no amount of filters will help me feel comfortable with giving them something early. I was a kid, and I know kids can figure out how to evade filters. I’ve done it myself.
So no, either no phone or complete trust, and they need to earn my trust first.
Yes, it’s part of set them up to succeed not fail. And another part of it is I want them to have a clean break from the outside world, from friendship drama or clinginess, from school stuff, etc. Digital switch off isn’t something people are good at doing by themselves as adults!
I think the healthier way to handle that is to explain why it’s a good thing and help them set appropriate boundaries. I like what my boss does, every week or two they have a “no tech” day where they put their phones in a safe, including the parents. They then have fun together, either by playing board games, having a picnic, etc.
Give them advance notice so they can plan appropriately, and make sure it’s fun. If they like it, they’ll likely want to do it again.
I think you’re assuming a lot from a little. I’m not explaining every thing we do around my home and my kids. I’m explaining 1 thing, it’s not everything.
We do this, 2 timex family family connect watches, the older green ones off eBay. It’s perfect and it opened up the privilege of walking home from school, walking to the park, and walking to friends houses as long as they keep it charged and check in. The newer ones look like an apple watch which I felt made them a theft target but the old ones have changed the family’s life. Then, we can ask them to do chores when they get home from school, and if they do, they can ask us to unlock tablet.
Parents turn to smart watches? Not in my household! Not one more fucking non Linux piece of shit spying screen more.
A modern day equivalent of “we don’t own a tv”
I guess? I think it’s more like “we don’t have cable/satellite TV.” My kids have watches, they just don’t connect to the internet. And why should they?
I have a smart watch, but I only use it to buy stuff, and I don’t wear it everywhere either. It’s not even really connected to my phone (I have to switch profiles to connect it).
I still say this to cable companies and other tv providers, is awesome and hilarious how they can’t continue their phone sale.
Can I interest you in an IBM WatchPad? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_WatchPad
Yes, sign me up.
They still make flip phones that aren’t “smart”
Yes but kids are less likely to lose watches.
Also it’s rare that a classroom would have a no watches rule.
Honestly I would love a watch for myself that would replace a smartphone but it would be even better for kids.
Garmin makes them and have a relatively good privacy policy and track record but it would be even better if we didn’t need to trust them.
I stopped smoking. I’ve moved on to cigars.
I mean you say that as a joke but cigars you don’t usually inhale into your lungs. Like you’re still at risk of mouth cancer, but if you switched from Cigarettes to cigars, you wouldn’t suffer the myriad of negative health effects that comes with being a cigarette smoker which would objectively be a huge improvement.
Moving to cigars first actually helped my father quit smoking completely
Wait you’re not supposed to inhale cigar smoke into your lungs? How do you get high from those then?
Lmao
I did that once.
Then the cancer set in
I did the cigar thing for about a year. After that I went to a pack of cigarettes a month. About a year of that and I finally quit. I smoked for about fifteen years but I haven’t smoked tobacco in over fifteen years.
Good job, that isn’t an easy task
The image here is My First Fone. For Android it has terrible notifications. I’m constantly missing messages and calls from my kid.
I’m sure it works in theory but wearing that for however long sounds a bit much. Now, is it a good idea? That’s a whole another can of worms.
My kid has it in their schoolbag, just wears it on the way home and later if they go out. They don’t have to wear it all the time.
Reasonable point, but people have worn watches all day for centuries. Just clean then and rotate wrists.
Something that big and heavy on a kid’s arm is going to get uncomfortable after like ten minutes.
One watch, the Garmin Bounce, weights 37.2 g. https://www.garmin.com/en-US/p/714945#specs
Hardly heavy.
That’s not so bad. I was looking at the picture in the article. That thing is enormous compared to the kid’s arm.
Understandable, the watch is the photo does appear large. Kid’s arms are tiny.
My kid’s been walking to/from school and roaming the neighborhood since he was 7. Apple Watch FTW. It has its legit uses.
Mine too. I gave them a cheap Casio and told them what time to be home, and they come home on time. If they don’t, they know they’re getting consequences, like not being allowed to go out on their own.
They know to not talk to strangers, and they know our phone numbers and address. They’re fine.
You know there are cheaper watches that do the same thing right
Name three.
“I’m going to strap a $700 watch to this $15K bag of organs, as a tip”
Really moronic take.
Somebody doesn’t have a sense of humor it seems
Sure, normalizing paranoia is very funny and definitely doesn’t have any real world negative consequences. Har-de-har-har.
If the neighborhood is safe for a 7 year old without an Apple watch, go ahead. If it’s but the case and they think the watch will make a difference… That’s negligence.
Sounds like something the secret government cabal would say.
I think it’s funny.
You’re joking, obtusely, about abduction and murder of children. You expect people to be amused?
I get it. I’d bet the other commenters don’t have kids. There’s hypothetical jokes about kids, then there’s jokes to someone about their actual kid. Commenting on a post VS replying to this person who has a kid.
I grew up with a very paranoid father. Somehow this guy has a stack of rough city survival stories but I couldn’t leave the suburban block. I don’t know the best way to raise a kid, but a watch and more freedom to roam sounds nice.
I have a kid. She turns 18 in September. I thought it was funny.
I also still make jokes about my mom, and she is now sitting on top of a shelf at Dad’s house as of a few months ago.
Yes. Get used to it, we live in hell, black comedy is just about all we have left to bring some levity to the situation.
Black comedy/gallows humor is a thing.
You don’t need to be so uptight. Nobody’s actually advocating for the murder of children here.
This is the internet. Some people will. Probably a lot. Do you expect everybody to have your exact same sensibles and kind of humor?
It’s a technology sub and I’ve been around long enough to know this is where the morons of the internet hang out but not everyone is as aware of the pattern.
Just the tip, I promise
Children’s smartwatches are a stripped-down version of a typical smartwatch, and they allow parents to restrict app downloads, usage and calls from an approved list of contacts.
All of that you can do with a phone too. I do admit thought the argument of not losing it as easily since its on your arm makes sense.
I think the not losing it and easy to carry thing is the key point. If they have to at least keep it in a backpack pocket fine, but if it has any whiff of something distracting to do on it, many kids will get distracted.
Mine have not hit that age yet so I still have time to form my opinions and be informed. As someone who likes small compact things I can’t lose, a watch sounds ideal.
Unless your kid, I don’t know, takes it off for some reason and leaves it at school over the weekend. Hypothetical, of course. Hasn’t happened to me once… or 4 times even.
Difference is the school isn’t going to confiscate my kid’s watch (yet)
I think you’re far less likely to spend a lot of screen time on a watch, hence the article
You obviously don’t have kids. I gave mine crappy Minecraft watches that had a couple games on it, and they were glued to them for hours at a time. It became a pretty big problem because they were staying up late.
Just imagine what they could do with a more capable device that can talk w/ friends.
If you restrict the crap out of the phones so there is not much interesting to do for kids, it will have similar effects. E.g. they complain about YouTube on their kids phones, block it. Complain about games, don’t let them install them.
It’s best when they don’t have an option to install and use this stuff to begin with, if it’s a problem. Mostly because I’m sure kids will find a way to bypass restrictions (because most these apps aren’t that good)
I’m sure, but a watch is 1000% more convenient if you don’t need any normal smart phone functionality (social media, games, internet access, media player, etc…). Its simpler to not have the option to use those features at all than to blacklist everything.
On top of that, it’s less likely to get lost or dropped/damaged like a flip phone. Probably has better battery life too. For small form-factor messaging + GPS its the most functional package.
