Take a car with an internal combustion engine and replace everything that is needed for an electric car. Now you have a no-nonsense car.
Instead, we have a rolling data center that feels like a smartphone.
My FIL has a 2021 Smart ForFour EV that’s as barebones as it gets. No screen, buttons and knobs for the climate control, popout rear windows AND an actual key you have to put into an actual hole.
It also looks like manufacturers are catching on and making EVs for normal people. Renault. Kia and Hyundai all have nice selections plus some of the Chinese models from Leap and BYD.
So it’s definitely getting better on the EV front.
Chinese companies are exporting basic EVs like you’re talking about that sell for like $15k. Sadly if you’re American you can’t buy one because Freedom!!!
I have a BYD dolphin and it’s great!
They sell for $15k in China, but you can’t compare those prices. Canada and Australia have allowed Chinese EV imports, nothing is below $40K in Canada, Australia has the BYD Atto, at $20k, but it’s a cheaply built car, likely disposable.
The BYD small EVs all have good safety ratings and they have been around for a while, so I don’t know why you think they are disposable
You’re right, the foreign prices are higher because of tariffs and other govt fees, shipping, storage, etc. and markups added by dealers because they can. But the end prices tend to be 25-30% less than other EVs with similar basic specs (minus frills).
They do. Or least they sometimes do. I drive a Kia Soul EV. It’s… a Kia Soul with an electric motor and battery instead of all the internal combustion stuff.
Haven’t souls been discontinued?
Yeah. I was merely noting that there’s a precedent for “normal-car-but-with-EV-stuff-instead.” It’s a shame that the Soul EV was given such a limited distribution. It’s easily my favorite car I’ve ever owned.
Show me a single non-EV car for sale that doesn’t raise all the same objections
Why should I buy a non-electric car? I think my question got misunderstood.
no reason! I had a 2017 BMW i3 for five years and now going on five years with a 2022 Taycan wagon, I’m all for BEVs!
It’s just that no new cars, regardless of powertrain, are available without the “smart” shit
I think it’s a salient point: It’s not just EVs. The entire industry has gone whole-hog on the “rolling data center” model.
As to “why” from your post title…well, I assumed it was a rhetorical question to introduce a (short) rant about the sad state of the automobile market.
Their point is that you are just nostalgic for old cars, simpler cars. All modern cars are overcomplicated, EV or not
My family has a 2019 Nissan leaf and the infotainment center feels like it’s from 2012, so I wouldn’t say it feels like a smartphone.
Dacia Spring ?
Dacia is usually pretty much bare bones
Mostly because they can. You really need to have everything automated anyway, you need at least a backup screen, so you might as well put it on that screen. It’s probably cheaper at that point to control everything by screen than to do install buttons
There’s still some hope
This is like the System 76 of cars.
Others mentioned it too, but a nissan leaf is as basic a car as it gets. There used to be many of them on the roads. I guess people who can afford having a car with a limited range that can only be charged in a facility or a garage (which excludes long range commuters and apartment dwellers), want to get a truck or a cool car with gimmicks, not a basic car.
deleted by creator
Driving a kia e-niro. There’s nothing gimmicky about it except for the melody that plays when you start the car. Everything else is pretty much down to earth regular car stuff. And with a price below 40k, in 2021, I think it wasn’t even that expensive for a EV.
You should check Chevy’s lineup. They’re pretty ok, the truck is expensive, but what truck isn’t?
Does the word “car” mean something different in the USA?
Sadly, yes.
“Car” in America is any passenger vehicle, it seems.
Actually your recipe for an electric car is what US manufacturers tried to do because it didn’t require as much retooling. Turns out it is a pretty bad way to make an electric vehicle from scratch. The batteries are big and heavy and need their own space. The best place is in the bottom for weight distribution but instead they had to cram them in the existing engine compartment along with the motor. It’s just not as good as designing it to be electric from the ground up. Most of them were compromised and thus didn’t sell well.
Regarding the rolling data center, that’s actually a different problem that applies to pretty much all new cars. There is a growing backlash against all of these features (and lack of buttons). Unfortunately, it kind of falls on deaf ears. I think this is why US manufacturers are scared of Chinese EVs. They take a more practical view of the vehicle. Although, I don’t actually know how much spying these Chinese vehicles do. It wouldn’t be like the Chinese to miss that opportunity.
I have actually converted an old diesel land rover to electric. NDA so I can’t disclose the company, but we replaced the transmission with an electric motor that had an adapter plate to the original transfer case. The engine was replaced with a large battery pack and some electric pumps, handfull of heat exchangers. As you said, converting is never as good. A big heavy pack where the motor was makes it more front heavy than with the diesel 4 cylinder, range was about 120 miles which is pretty piss poor compared to what it could do with the diesel powertrain. It was very cool in theory, but not a practical vehicle. Another company has done a different ev conversion on some of the LR’s and they used a Tesla drivetrain if I’m not mistaken, and had to split up the battery pack and spread it across 3 different locations in the vehicle. Purpose built evs are definatley the way for packaging, although repowering classics that only get tooled around here and there to get ice cream or go golfing on the weekend is a neat concept. The weight distribution of the components is just so different from an ice that it necessitates a ground up design. Electric motors are far lighter than ice engines, but they need FAR more weight in battery packs than a tank of fuel for comparable range so u cant exactly just replace the fuel tank with a battery pack and expect it to go far.
why would such work require an nda?
Because the company that “builds” the ev converted vehicle actually just designs and sources parts + the vehicle, our shop is the one that actually built them (at least for the USA based clients). I’m not sure the buyer knows it was done by us or not, I’m sure it doesn’t much matter. There’s only a handful of companies that offer this so it wouldnt be too hard for u to narrow it down to a couple!
Ah. So it’s kind of a secret that they don’t do their own work…
Is it just fancy and expensive cars that do this? I have an old hatchback I’d like to convert, but otherwise it would go to the scrapyard.
Unfortunately the components and labor time make it very cost prohibitive to have somebody do it for you, the only way it makes any financial sense to me is if your capable of doing the conversion yourself. The company we built some evs for only does them for fairly expensive classics so they are not chasing affordability, and for the money u can get a much better ev. With these people ur paying to have a bespoke electrified classic, not necessarily a prectical ev. As the other comment response to you stated a small unibody is very had to convert, and honestly would probably makes more sense to put a more efficient ice engine in. Fwd cars usually have low floor pans so nowhere to put batteries besides in place of the fuel tank or in the engine bay. Then you need to consider how the wheels will get powered, and you start getting into custom machined parts and the cost starts to jump. This is one of those things where it’s a lot easier if somebody has already done it, if your the first on a specific platform your going to have to design ur own systems and parts to make it possible. For example your fwd hatchback doesn’t have a transfer case we can make an adapter plate for and bolt an electric motor to, and most small case fwd transaxles can’t handle the torque of an electric motor so just bolting it to the transmission may not work or last long. It can get pretty complicated pretty quick, not that internal combustion engines necessarily simpler, but the ecosystem they need is already in the car and the cars already been designed around it. Ev drivetrains are also pretty heavy so starting with a small light car is difficult, roll center and center of gravity will be affected, weight added. It may snowball into needing stiffer suspension, larger brakes etc and the car certainly won’t drive the way it did before. Hate to say it but the cost of a custom converversion is likely going to be more than the cost of a slate truck or something lol.
Less spying is absolutely not why US manufacturers are scared of Chinese EVs, it’s cheap labor and long term state backing. I have a bridge to sell to anyone who thinks Chinese EVs aren’t spying, hahaha
I’d rather have China spy on me than US corporations or state. I don’t live in China and have no fear that their surveillance will result in a fascist goon at my doorstep.
Then you’re an idiot.
because that information is gonna end up in the same markets as the information from anywhere else, and its going to fuck you over in the long term.
You’re too obsessed with government jackboots coming to your door to even consider your car and health insurance premiums skyrocketing at best, or getting dropped at worst, because your driving data was sold to them and they decided you were too much a risk despite a clean driving record.
and thats only a small example of what can be done with this data. it could affect a lot more as companies try to analyze you and your actions and catagorize you. or even better, explode your phone with advertising with every store you’re driving past.
I mean, I’d rather not be spied on at all, but at least a Chinese collector has to find an American buyer, whereas the American collector is the American buyer. But I agree with you, mass surveillance is bad no matter who is doing it.
That’s where I’m at. What’s China realistically going to do with that data?? If I’m going to be spied on no matter what I’d rather have it be done by a country across the world and get a reasonably priced EV too.
Sure, there’s absolutely no way that data from China can end up in the US. Even if offered money, you can trust that no data collector in China would ever accept money in exchange for user data. Also, they’re all excellent at keeping it secure, so rest assured it will never get leaked!
Oh yeah if I buy American there’s no way my data would get sold. American companies are known for their solid moral compass and they put customer satisfaction over profits. And there’s never been a data breach from an American company ever!! :D
And i want to be a good American consumer and pay an American car company 4x to 5x the price of the cheap and affordable Chinese EV. Since I got all this money from tariff rebate and doge checks I can afford to buy an American EV.
yeah but I’d rather China spy on me than an actively hostile nation that’s a greater threat to me
either way, not buying a car like that
Once you understand how cheap the components (battery, electric motors, some servos, some steel, a LOT of plastic…
If they don’t make them fabulous the fabulous people won’t buy them. As it is some wide track golf cart/pickup trucks would be far superior than any of the sleek stuff turned out. Better “volt” mileage too.
The batteries aren’t cheap. That’s still the expensive part of an EV, even though it’s nowhere near as expensive as it used to be.
But overall, the same issue plagues all new cars. There have been very few great innovations in the last decade or so, so now they just have to cram more techy tech into cars to get people to buy a new one. I mean no real innovations aside from the electrification itself of course.
Go look at high-end cars in 2016. Carplay/Android Auto was already a thing, though optional in most cars, and not available in all yet. Safety features like automatic braking, adaptive cruise, lane keep assist were already available. Massage seats were old news. There was just nothing new to add to a car to differentiate it from others. Tesla had just come along a few years ago with a slick UI and over the air updates, and people were blown away with it. What do you do? You start imitating the success of Tesla, going too far (too much tech) instead of integrating only the good things (actually responsive screen, for example).
Hell, I maintain that you can get 90% of what you’d ever want from a car, if you’re willing to own ICE, from a well-equipped 2005-2013 Mercedes S-Class by upgrading it with a AA/Carplay module. There’s little in its 2014-2020 successor that makes it truly a better car - only a slightly nicer infotainment system, better transmission (even that only in the facelift) and different (some better, some worse) engine options. So in 2020, with the new model, they went crazy with screens, making the interior actually uglier than the old ones. The electric equivalent, EQS, was even more screen-focused, only because it came out a year or 2 later, not because it’s electric.
Once we get to cheaper cars, however, it’s even harder to add any real new innovations. MB’s Magic body control (camera controlled hydraulic suspension that knows when to soften up for a pothole) is super expensive. 4 wheel steering is expensive. A large touchscreen is not expensive. A sim card for online services is not expensive.
The batteries aren’t cheap
2012 wants it’s comment back.
A 50kwhr pack now costs $4000 and dropping.
you’re starting too far down the line
most vehicles nowadays are gimmicks
the real question is why can’t we get a simple economical vehicle and not unrepairable subcription-based spyware on wheels with dangerous features, regardless of engine type
I mean when it comes to price it’s because the US banned chinese car companies. If BYD was allowed to sell here it would destroy these overpriced domestic manufacturers. They’re still annoyingly “smart” but they’re atleast not expensive as all hell.
I think that’s part of the reason BYD does so well in Australia.
Their cars look like normal cars.
We’re about to get BYD cars in Canada, they’re half the price of anything else on the market. If they can resist our winters and evil road salt I’m totally game for one to replace my gas-guzzler.
Not really, unless you mean giant SUVs. Where are the regular cars and hatchbacks? I hate this constant bigger and bigger vehicles nonsense that just puts people at risk.
Today’s larger cars are actually safer… but for their occupants only. In a sea of trucks and giant SUVs it’s a little scary so everyone wants a big car. Even small cars are big now, look at a Fiat 500!
Not necessarily true. Bigger car doesn’t necessarily mean a safer car. It’s complicated and SUVs have made car accidents more dangerous because they are heavier and are much more likely to flip compared to a car with a low centre of gravity. They also are far more dangerous AGAINST sedans and hatchbacks due to the mass difference
https://www.drive.com.au/caradvice/are-suvs-safer-than-smaller-cars/
Here’s an article that looks at some of the research.
SUVs do provide perceived safety because drivers are higher up and in a bigger car but that’s not valuable whatsover in an accident.
I don’t know about the rest of the world but in Australia SUVs were treated with less restrictive emissions standards as sedans or hatchbacks so car companies pushed them very hard, some fleets completely removing sedans and hatchbacks from their line up and replacing them with Compact SUVs.
I’m pretty certain most of the SUV craze is just very effective marketing.
Same is true in US and Canada, trucks are loopholed for safety to save production costs.
