As a colored dude, it’s hard to explain. I’ve even had white folks say, “Nah man it’s not like that.”
We’re attracting the good trolls, I’m sorry that I have to lock it.
In the very strictest sense, not exactly. If you looked at resumes with all indicators of race and gender removed, then you would probably see that the people with the highest amount of merit were white men.
…But that’s only half of the story.
The issue is that, broadly speaking, white men will have had more advantages growing up that allowed them to have that merit. It’s no indicator of potential. If you get a head start on the race, then sure, you’re much more likely to end up winning, not because you’re inherently faster, but because you got an advantage. DEI is part of an attempt to find the people who have the potential to be the best, no just the people that are the best right now.
The issue is, in practically, resumes don’t have all indicators of race or gender removed.
There have been several studies that suggest that the name on the resume is enough of an indicator of race and gender to let bias creep in. Even on otherwise identical resumes. I’m not sure if we’re going to remove names from resumes any time soon.
This isn’t even true though. Hiring is done by people who have implicit biases and subconscious preferences. When a hiring committee has no diversity, the people hired tend to be less diverse than the average.
I know that sociology is an elective in a lot of US colleges, and I thoughr more people would haveI taken it. It pretty straightforwardly explained that every aspect we hold inevitably drives our social interactions and life experience whether we like to or not. From what I’ve gathered from my friend’s experiences and the attitutes I’ve seen onlone, the sentiment of “why does it matter to be X” is very much prevelant, and being on the receiving end of unknowing racism really does hurt.
But at the same time, understanding that point also means understanding that people who do not have your traits may not be able to fathom these sorts of experiences (though experience in general is hard to transfer) which results in a kind of dismissal. I’m not saying to forgive, but I understand, and it’ll be all I think about as I help educate (and/or bulldoze disrespectful) people.
Many people beed tk realize the reality that a lot of the interactions we are seeing on mainstream social media platforms especially x/ twitter whatever the fuck its called now, is heavily manipulated by imperial actors such as the company team Jorge which is a mossad run bot farm out of israel that for a price (or even for free depending on the cause, floods platforms with fake engagement meant to make conservatism Look more popular than it truly is to manufacture consent and confuse/ wear down people attempting to dialogue and potentially even convince uninformed people consuming this state propaganda to support fascism/ conservatism.
Just wait until Silicon Valley Google coders are all Indian foreign born making 35K/year living on the Google campus. DEI works both ways.
This is the direction Google was heading anyway. More H1-B visas. More precarious employment for developers. More downward pressure on wages. Longer hours. Shittier living conditions. Eat the Bugs. Live in the Pod. Then spend your free time telling people to Like, Subscribe, and Share your 10 Neat Tricks on how they can make it all the way to the “coding goon for a defunct software company” proletariat high water mark.
The presence or absence of DEI was always just window dressing for shit these companies wanted to do anyway. DEI never really worked save as a means of shoving off the then-current administration’s interrogation of Silicon Valley business practice. Now that the old Bidencrats are gone and the new Trumpocrats are in, its time to say “Actually all the Vivek Ramaswamy clones we’re importing are part of the MAGA vision and they always have been”.
This misses the point entirely.
DEI is about finding the best candidate for the job, and paying them fair wages.
What you’re describing is literally anti-DEI. Musk and Trump have both been open about using the H-1B visa program to find foreign workers who will work cheaply, and they do it so that they don’t have to pay American workers a fair amount.
DEI is about finding the best candidate for the job, and paying them fair wages.
No it isn’t. Its about finding the best PR pitch for the university you’re recruiting in. Since American universities are going to shit, tech companies are moving abroad to hire cheaper (and often, frankly, better) developers overseas.
This creates a knock-on effect as well, since hiring is often part of a traditional march out to a select set of college campuses or by referral from existing employees. As Google/Meta/Amazon staff up with more and more East Indian workers, the networking effect sets in and future hiring fixates on the same places the last crop of hires came from.
The DEI line is just whitewashing for H1-B programs the tech sector already embraced. Now that its no longer in vogue, we’re “Getting rid of DEI” to keep doing the H1-B programs that tech has embraced. Its all post-hoc PR rationalization.
Musk and Trump have both been open about using the H-1B visa program to find foreign workers who will work cheaply, and they do it so that they don’t have to pay American workers a fair amount.
That’s exactly what I’m saying
My mistake. I thought you were arguing the other way.
Thats the thing- they’re describing what will happen when DEI programs are dismantled.
Diversity
Equity
InclusionIt’s not “woke”, no matter how hard they try to convince you of it! Diversity: Okay, yeah. If you’re some close-minded person who’s stayed in the same small town your whole life you might fear people who are different and not understand them. Literally part of what these initiatives are trying to improve, but whatever. However, the other two are basically just about fairness and making sure everyone has the chance to thrive! Nothing to fear there! Who could possibly be against that!?
I mean the very simple answer they’ll have to any point you make is “it’s a lie told by <opposition> to get <what they want> unfairly and/or illegally.”
Which is why earnest discussion is so difficult. Neither side can really trust that the other side to use words that match intent. I, for sure, don’t trust anything a Right-leaning pundit says about their reasons for legislative positions.
Progress threatens the profoundly mediocre.
I’m in a red area and most of the pushback I hear is about equity. They’re all for equality/equal opportunities but don’t support guaranteeing equal outcomes. Whatever that means. I’m just trying to answer your question from the end of your comment because I’ve heard people say that.
Sounds like those folks don’t actually know what the word equity means.
To answer the last sentence: literally Nazis
People lie about it in my experience. I work in government and in education. I’ve received our “DEI” training. I’m in the very heart of it, and all I’ve seen is that it’s the exact thing that the people who complain about it say (sometimes) that they want instead. They (probably say but don’t necessarily mean) that we should hire based on merit and not race. Well guess what? My dei training is watching a video where: some boss says "I don’t want to hire Ahmed ", his subordinate says “but he’s the best candidate” and his boss says “yeah but he’s Indian” freeze frame, question on what you should do, play video saying to hire him if he’s the most qualified guy.
Maybe your experience is different, but I’m in an organization that is what gets pointed to the hardest as “the problem” by these people, and I have seen what they describe. Maybe it’s different for HR, but are you in our HR department, or have you just “heard about it”
But the ascent is something I’ve literally heard mentioned by white owners. When they hired their first non-white employee they made a point of mentioning how easy he was to understand.
It’s not always about racism. I preferred hiring people that I knew were good workers or were referred to me by people I trusted to have good judgement over someone who was maybe better on paper. An unfortunate side effect of that is my social circle early in my career was mostly other white people but I never rejected or thought less of someone because of their race. It was just that the places I worked always made it a pain in the ass to reopen a position when someone quit or was fired and I couldn’t afford to gamble on an unknown. If no one was referred to me then whoever I hired was based off qualifications and how they interviewed. As I got older and met more people of different backgrounds those recommendations became more diverse.
All that being said DEI policies do solve the problem (other than the having to hire an unknown that would be hard to replace if they don’t work out). It would be better for people to expand their social circle and meet more people on their own but I don’t know how you would enforce that.
I preferred hiring people that I knew were good workers or were referred to me by people I trusted to have good judgement over someone who was maybe better on paper.
An unfortunate side effect of that is my social circle early in my career was mostly other white people.
Right, and your statement proves that individual racism isn’t required for oppresion to exist, cuz you’re pretty much defining systemic racism. Many white people don’t know many POC because of deliberate, decades-long systemic segregation practices (e.g red-lining) that push us towards race-defined classes.
Yeah, agreed. That’s what I was trying to get at with the last part of my comment. As time went on my circle widened and I got to know more diverse people the candidates getting recommended to me became more diverse. DEI, even the boogeyman version people like to complain about makes that happen much faster rather than organically.
As a white guy, I’d like to think it’s not like that. I’d like to think that we left racism and all this bullshit in the past and any job goes to the best qualified applicant regardless of race, gender, or sexual preferences.
While I would like that to be true, I know that isn’t the world we live in.
We already had Equal Opportunity laws for race and disability though, but DEI is actually sneaked-in Marxism. What do people think Marxism is a just philosophy? It’s inherently anti-social and sociopathic.
https://newdiscourses.com/2023/04/marxist-roots-of-dei-workshop-all-sessions/
Under Marxism, it’s okay to put someone to death for being a “better off peasant”, https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kulak
I’ve literally had people tell me on Lemmy that it was okay that Stalin put kulaks to death. I’ve also had people tell me on Lemmy that it’s okay to forcibly steal from people, as in middle-class citizens, to “redistribute wealth”.
Progressively taxing people and democratically deciding how to spend funds is one thing. But the Stalin-like taking of peoples properties and resources is worlds apart! The only sane way to bring people universal healthcare and UBI etc is something like the Nordic model, https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nordic_model
No one should be racist or ableist, but trying to sneak in Marxism under the guise of anti-racism is fucked.
There are comments in this thread downvoted for rightly pointing out the racism in other countries. Have you lived in LatAm countries or Asia? Western democracies are comparatively the least racist places on the face of this world! Don’t fucking kid yourselves.
People should try to save democracies, but let’s not fucking pretend that other places are angelic heavens which do no wrong. It’s disingenuous and detached from reality.
I’m getting reports on you. It’s a fine line between disinformation that sounds “smart” and breaking the rules. I’m pulling it because it’s not being excellent to the people it effects.
You’re muddying the waters. If you want to have a discussion, stop giving it a volatile label. Regardless of your point, your label has me involved now.
Fine, this is a touchy subject rn and I don’t want to inflame or troll
Shut up, Nazi
As a socialist citizen of a Nordic state, the Nordic model is a wonderful example of socialism in practice. The US, even with full DEI implementation, would be nowhere near as socialist as the Nordic countries.
This might be the most insane take i read all day
Stalin was not the best example of Marxism. Stalin was a megalomaniac that killed a political rival that wasn’t a threat just because he once was a threat.
The term kulak was older than Stalin.
And the last part is a bookcase whataboutism.
lol of course, not a True Scot
“They hated him, for he told them the truth.”
What’s the Kremlin like?
If you think DEI is Marxism in disguise you know neither what it nor Marxism actually are.
Actually, I do know, I’ve read enough about Stalinism and Leninism. It’s not a huge leap, then, to connect the equity philosophy to enable redistribution of wealth and resources to the Global south, especially as it relates to Climate justice.
Authoritarianism is still fucked whether the people oppressing you are left or right.
Lol thinking DEI is somehow parallel to authoritarianism is hilarious.
You might want to work on your reading comprehension if this is the lesson you learned. Making sure a company has a fair and unbiased hiring process or representation of minorities or fair pay and equal equity for stakeholders that are people of color or women, etc etc is a very far cry from some sort of broad wealth redistribution.
Then tell me why I am being called a Nazi for bringing up the FACTUAL connection DEI and CRT both have to Neo-Marxism and Marxism. I am not racist, nor homophobic, or transphobic. I want to see better outcomes for people in minority status. I just don’t want people to blindly accept Marxist ideologies.
Because they’re not Marxist ideologies and you’re trying to pretend they are and/or reading materials that are disingenuous and incorrect.
I’m not calling you a Nazi but I am telling you that CRT and DEI initiatives are not at all grounded in Marxism.
Maybe you’re right in so many words, I’ll take into consideration.
Here’s some reading, https://pure.hud.ac.uk/ws/portalfiles/portal/16137312/Marxism_CRT_and_Black_Radicalism_FINAL.pdf
Your first link really reads as conspiracy theory, Ive yet to meet a Marxist HR department
Tbh I thought the same at first, but it’s because it’s distilling so much underlying philosophy to its most apparent application.
https://medium.com/@iskandar.talaei/dei-explained-by-james-lindsay-53dd9cd510d2
Other povs
https://lawliberty.org/the-philosophy-underlying-dei/
https://www.newsweek.com/critical-race-theory-repackaged-marxism-opinion-1599557
In other words, the designers and adherents of critical theory admitted their true intent. Not equality under the law. Not civil rights. Not freedom, liberty and justice for all. Not a better life for racial minorities. Critical theorists admit their intent is to use racial minorities as the vanguard for a Marxist revolution.
I feel like “DEI” is a bandaid to a bigger issue, that is: unequal opportunities due to schools that aren’t properly funded (amongst many other things in a person’s childhood).
If those issue are fixed, these “DEI” stuff wouldn’t even need to exist.
Also:
I hate how people complain that Harris is somehow “DEI”
Like, isn’t politicians supposed to represent the people? If they keep picking White Men, how are minorities supposed to feel like a part of the country? There were 45 presidents of which 44 were White Men, and this ticket of a Black Woman (Harris) + a White Man (Walz) somehow triggers people. 🙄 (Like who cares, vote for policy, not people)
Even if Harris was elected, Black Presidents wouldn’t even represent 5% of all people who have been presidents. (2/46 = 4.34% vs the black population at 13%) Why they (conservatives) be complaining so much lol.
If they keep picking White Men, how are minorities supposed to feel like a part of the country?
That’s not a bug, it’s a feature.
I fully agree and in typical American fashion, affirmative action and DEI were just bandaids to quickly solve some of the effects of institutional discrimination, instead of solving it at the root.
Even I, as a very progressive person, don’t like some DEI hires. But the actual problematic DEI hires are not talented people like Kamala Harris. They are connected incompetent people.
I think Clarence Thomas would be a good example. By most accounts he is the most corrupt and incompetent justice, who just happened to run in the right conservative circles.
In the business world, I also see quite a lot of well-connected incompetent people. It used to be white gulf buddies, now it tends to be the white sister-of, or the latina wife-of, the gulf buddy.
Maybe the Trump kids are the best example of DEI hires. Ivanka Trump, anyone?
Thomas got in because of cronyism. He was the best conspirator available. He was also appointed by a Republican President who claimed he was the best qualified. Quite the opposite of token hiring. The party accused of using DEI to subvert a meritocracy opposed his appointment (Democrats).
So in summary, the GOP is projecting its failures onto Democrats again.
But the actual problematic DEI hires are not talented people like Kamala Harris. They are connected incompetent people.
I argue that Harris isn’t really that much of a “DEI Hire”.
I mean, sure, you might argue she only got picked because of race and gender. But the purpose of politicians in a democratic system is to make people feel represented, not necessarily the “smartest” or “most experienced”. Race and Gender absolutely matters. Like, if we keep having white men in the white house, that is a big “f you” to women and minorities. So picking Harris is absolutely essential to acknowledge the existence of Black people and Women. (And Harris isn’t even some random person, she was qualified enough to be Attorney General of CA, and a Senator, merit definitely contributed to her getting picked)
Besides, the President (and Vice President) will have a lot of advisors to help them with the job, you don’t need someone that’s an Einstein to be President, just someone with overall good policy and some compassion, and can pick good cabinet members to run the country.
The job of politicians shouldn’t be considered to be to make people feel represented. It should be to actually represent them.
If it was to make people feel represented, then I’m sorry to inform you that Donald Trump is the most successful President in my memory, perhaps the most successful ever, because that is his appeal - he makes the MAGAts feel represented, and he does so very very strongly.
The country is a racist shithole, and more people than you might think are essentially closeted bigots, unless they think you’re some ally, oh boy will they open up and it gets uncomfortable.
As a white guy, it is like that. In the same way it is in female run office spaces. But white guy culture is definitely the most toxic. They feel unashamedly deserving when they find good old boys clubs.
Having worked in a sexist office, it sucks, having worked for good old boys, it sucks. Not being able to call people out on their shit fucking sucks.
female run office spaces
The worst places I have worked at had female leadership and majority women employees. The gossip and bullying was off the scale. Older ladies harassing young men was a daily occurrence and laughed at.
Reminds me of this: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-1168182/Catfights-handbags-tears-toilets-When-producer-launched-women-TV-company-thought-shed-kissed-goodbye-conflict-.html
It’s the DailyMail, so take it with a wheelbarrow of salt, but it’s what came to mind.
Women being assholes to men has become deeply ingrained in American culture.
Men dumb, women smart is something many men agree with while claiming to be alpha. It’s quite silly and has resulted in a form a toxicity that remains poorly defined but palpable once you’re aware of it…
The old hags in the fucking HR department at one place I worked were the most racist sexist pieces of shit I have ever had the displeasure of being within earshot of.
Any group is capable of making a workplace toxic.
People hire their friends and family anyway.
You mean Person of color? Doubt!(x) nice try cosplay diddy
She still believes that conservatives argue in good faith?
They know.
People denied COVID was real whilst gargling their own lungs. What the fuck would it take to convince you these assholes aren’t secretly well-informed?
Meant the people doing it
Surprisingly, they don’t. Well, the ones who enact / reject these policies do, but the layman doesn’t. It’s incredibly frustrating to have friends and co-workers who reject the explanation for why DEI matters and is important
Sorry for my ignorance, but what does DEI stand for?
Diversity, equity, and Irrigation
Irrigation?
Just kidding, it’s inclusion/inclusivity 😁
Deacidification, emaciation, irrigation
No need to apologize. Diversity, equity and inclusion. It’s the principle that having more representation is a good thing. The Trump administration is against it because they claim it takes opportunities away from straight white men.
i mean it does and that’s a good thing, we’ve seen what happens when we leave it up to the employer.
nepotism hires as far as the eye can see.
