Hi there, first I hope I don’t offend anyone since this is not meant to be a bash on anyone and it’s just reflecting my personal feelings. But I assume I will get attacked anyways.
So I’m a 21 year old from Germany and we don’t have many people with darker skin shades here but the few I know who also grew up here are just like any other German and talk/behave the exact same way as every other German and also seem to be perceived like a normal German. Maybe some people might naturally be kinda surprised by people having darker skin since it’s more rare but I feel like people just perceive the different skin shade the same way they perceive different hair and eye color.
But from America I noticed that many people constantly call them “black” or “white” people and make a big thing about it as if they were a different race (and of course we scientifically know that there’s only one human race). And it seems like many Americans identify with that so much that they separated and developed different cultures, behavior and way of talking solely based on their skin shade even though they’re born and raised in the same country.
I know that there was slavery and segregation in America based on exactly this in the past but this is over and we’re living in 2025 now which is why I wonder if this is still appropriate and contemporary.
Because to me personally this kinda feels like America is still stuck in those slavery/segregation times and it makes me feel very uncomfortable every time I hear this “black” and “white” stuff which is becoming constant since American media is everywhere. And I feel like this is also influencing people overseas like here where especially younger people in cities adopt this American mindset and I’ve even seen some using the N-Word etc.
When I grew up I never even had a concept of “different skin colors” because it just felt normal that people naturally look different and I still think like this about people and see it the same way as people having different hair and eye color but I can tell that these racist ideologies are doing something to me.
Scientifically race does exist in the sense that humans with certain genotypes can present certain phenotypes but we are all the same species. I don’t think you can really quantify it at the individual human level though without ending up with all this old fashioned racist concepts coming into play, i.e. someone with 1/8 asian hertiage is “still asian” or whatever.
Race seems to be a bigger deal in the states because it is more politicised in terms of voting blocs. That’s not to say we are immune to it in Europe like people with south asian heritage often vote for particular candidates in the UK for example.
I think one major factor in perceived differences is that our larger cities in Europe tend to be more genuine melting pots with fewer segregated areas. There are probably other reasons like having a stronger sense of civil society too.
tl;dr: race is real in a fuzzy sense but not particularly important. Europe has a different culture to the USA in some key senses.
There’s already a better word to describe genetic clusters - ethnicity/ethnic group, which is a real scientific concept defined by shared genealogy. Race has pretty much always been defined by someone’s sociopolitical relationship with the British upper class, and has changed over time to accommodate varying definitions of, ex. “white”.
Because to me personally this kinda feels like America is still stuck in those slavery/segregation times
Yes. American culture is very much based on social hierarchies, and slavery created a very easy, color-coded social hierarchy. So it’s hard to get rid of because a lot of people are invested in it - whether they admit it or not.
Americans (except for the most liberal) tend to look at race as a biological reality and regard anyone saying race isn’t science as woke extremism. Generally when science conflicts with common/traditional sense in America, common sense wins. The only reason quantum physics isn’t banned from schools yet is because probably only about 10% of Americans know the first thing about quantum physics.
Americans also regard a wide variety of racial discrimination - such as in dating (including who you allow your kids to date), or where you live, or where you send your kids to school, as “not racist”. This is considered not racist because the goal isn’t to harm racial minorities, but rather you’re just doing it to protect your place in the social hierarchy. The race-based social hierarchy. And if this harms minorities, well it’s not like it’s your fault right?
And if you dare try to suggest that the above is racist, people will get very angry at you and do things like elect Trump.
So yeah, racism is still very prevalent in the US.
Didn’t you already post about this?
Americans are racist, and dumb. One plays into the other, and the politicians like it this way because its easy to manipulate.
Does America have racists and dumb people within its borders? Absolutely. What country doesn’t?
Is America the most racist country? Absolutely not. Is it the dumbest country? Also no.
Nowhere is perfect. Despite all its flaws America is still the number 1 immigration destination so clearly we must be doing something right.
Got a feeling that number 1 spot ain’t lasting much longer, bud. Look at who won. I’d say we’re plenty racist and stupid to let grifters pick our pockets when they promise to kick out all the brown people. Like I said, downvote me. It doesnt make it not true.
Number 2 spot is Germany. All of the immigrants they have ever had would need to double while not a single soul immigrated into the US for the next ~30 years.
That may be true but we are still going down because people wanted deportations and cheap eggs. Thats the truth, we chose fascism so we could deport immigrants.
*illegal immigrants.
We still have many immigrants coming into the country legally every day.
Just illegals? Are you sure about that? Really sure?
Yeah… Neither of those disprove my comment. The first article is about temporary legal status being given by a previous administration. Key word there being temporary. I’m not going to argue the morality or legality of that whole situation but those appear to be special exceptions.
Second article just proves that ICE is being racist and doing their jobs of checking peoples legal status. I did only skim the article but it didn’t appear to report that any of them actually got deported. Just detained and questioned.
Thank goodness Germany has resolved racism. I’m glad the AfD has thoroughly reformed itself. No wonder they’re getting more votes these days.
I can be downvoted to oblivion, doesnt make it not true. I didn’t say Germany was perfect. I said America wasn’t.
If you ever see little kids with different skin tones playing together, they are clearly not bothered by skin color, and it has no bearing on their play. The racism in America is completely learned. It is not natural. Sometimes consciously, but many times unconsciously.
Loosely similar is how men in most places are fine walking around alone at night. While women consciously try to move in groups, even during the daytime. Many men have no idea how different it is for many women.
They aren’t bothered by it. But they’ll also still say “the dark girl”, with no malice of course.
Skin color, hair color, height, weight. These are all easy to see and use to identify people when we don’t know names.
There’s nothing wrong with saying “the black guy” if you don’t know Steve yet. I guess you could also say “the darker hair individual, maybe a 4c”.
It happened for so long, at all levels of society, that it is still affecting us today. It has shaped the cities we currently live in. It has shaped our language. It has shaped our laws.
The first girl Black girl to go to a school that was all white is only 71 years old. And that was barely the start of the end of segregation.
A bad example, because I’m only American, but anyone in the European Union could move anywhere in the European Union. Some places just have depressing weather, or are very isolated. But it would still take a great effort for the people who even want to move to actually move.
Lol someone already posted this, was that you?
I’m gonna copy paste my reply again:
I don’t really see this, in my area at least. Other people’s experience will vary. I notice my white and black clasmates get along very well. Hate is not born, it’s taught. I think this “divide” is more in rural areas. I’m in Philly and it’s a very diverse city, racism between white and black kids are almost non-existent (or at least I never witnessed any actual racism between white kids and black kids beyond the kids being “edgy” with their “dark humor”). I mean like, I never heard a white kid said the N word with the hard R.
I did, however, notice a lot of kids making racist “jokes” against me (For context: I was born in PRC, and immigrated to the US). Like white kids and black kids would both make jokes like “Chinese language probably sounds like ‘Chng Chng’” and then they both laugh at the “joke” I’m just like wtf dude. Luckily, as you go up higher in the grade level, the less racist people seem to be.
For context, my high school was like (approximately): 30% White, 20% Black, maybe like 15% Latino, 30% Asian.
Now, the school was very shitty, there were bullying everywhere. But bullying usually wasn’t based on race.
And despite the racism that I personally have faced, I do have some Chinese-American classmates who were born here in the US, and they seem to get along with everyone else well, so I’m guessing I’m just not “Americanized” enough and its more like Xenophobia more than Racism/Sinopobia. I’m don’t use an “American” name so I guess that’s is one of the major reasons why I get targed for racism but others who look just like me don’t get targeted.
Now, to be clear, that’s not to say there aren’t racism between white people and black people. I’m not downplaying racism, I’m just saying I’m lucky to live in a place where the racism is very minimal. There are probably some racists in certain neighborhoods in Philly. I did see some trump flags when traveling around the city, so those people definitely exist. But my point is that its so rare and so socially unacceptable (at least in my city) that I’m having a hard time recalling when I personally witnessed any serious (as in a non-joke) racism between white people and black people happened (I mean, other than on those on the news).
But, outside of my city, especially the rural areas… I don’t have first hand experience, but those are probably not somewhere a racial minority would want to go to. And I personally would NEVER go to any republican dominated area.
Edit: In response to this part
And I feel like this is also influencing people overseas like here where especially younger people in cities adopt this American mindset and I’ve even seen some using the N-Word etc
If you hear kids saying the n word ending with the “a” its a friendly greeting similar to “homie”. Even a white kid can say it if their black friends is okay with it. However, the “hard-r” the N word ending with the R is not acceptable.
Idk why kids do this, but I guess they are trying to “reclaim” the word. I personally never used any variation these words, because its just wrong, even if its trying to “reclaim” the word or whatever.
So I’m a 21 year old from Germany
When, as a people, or a nation do unprecedented crimes and evil, it rings out through history, carried by the parents and given to the children. Racism is still a topic for discussion because it’s still a problem. I’m sure you understand.
I’m sure you understand
Idk I spent a few years in Europe and, to be honest, I don’t think so. You ask a European about gypsies or Muslim immigrants and all of a sudden they’re mask off. But “it’s different” so it’s okay
Because Americans conflate this with race when it’s not the skin color that causes pain for Europeans but the cultural aspects. Clearly Islam and gypsy cultures are much more than race right?
“okay we’re not racist, were just discriminate on other things”
Back in the 90s the focus was to be colorblind, ie to treat everyone the same. Now people are focusing on race again in a big way. It boggles my mind that people now think treating people differently based on race is somehow a good thing. That people should get preferential hiring based on race is probably the biggest WTF.
Pretending to be colorblind hurts non-white people more than not.
I feel like it started getting worse from 2016 on and since 2020 the world has become so weird
I recommend you check out “The New Jim Crow: Mass Incarceration in the Age of Colorblindness” by Michelle Alexander.
The basic getaway from the book is this: Segregationists didn’t go anywhere, and since the time of Ronald Reagan, the ways the segregationists found to keep black people down are mostly related to the economy and law enforcement. The stereotype being attacked is now the “gang-bangers”, those from “the hood”. Not all black people… Just most of them.
From the 60s-70s, black people living in near industrial zones where they mostly worked were hit by mass unemployment due to their relocation. Rather than try to find a solution, propaganda stigmatising them was massively produced, the “war on drugs” was started to punish them for the only survival means that some found. Black people serve disproportionately long sentences, and are forever alienated when they get out, often unable to find jobs. Not only those who were imprisoned, but their families and communities suffer from this. This is not only true of drug-related crime; but sometimes things like misfiled taxes. The war on drugs was basically a pretext to over police and arbitrarily arrest black people, and dissuade them from forms of protest against their situation.
Now, compared to segregation, this is as big a net, but not such a tight one: This systems allows some black people to escape this system and get a situation equal to white people… But of you look at the bulk of the stats, many aren’t better off than during segregation.
These were at first, right-wing policies bore by the Republican Party, but Bill Clinton ended up doubling down on them instead of opposing them, because he didn’t want to appear “weak on crime”, since then there has been no opposition to it in mainstream politics.
Colorblindness helps this system, because it keeps you from naming the oppressed group, and thus from seing the oppression. It makes it easier to swallow the idea that the millions in prison are no-good gang hooligans from the mysterious land of “hood”, but that for the most part, black people are doing fine, because those who went to the same school as you or are among your coworkers are doing fine.
So, good for you, but the particular dynamics of being a colonial country that had a massive portion of its economy based on race-based slavery has resulted in an approach to diversity that has much deeper roots and has been wrestling with hard issues for much longer than Germany has, and Germany’s own record with dealing with identifiable minorities in the last hundred years has, shall we say, not always been great.
Many European countries are only now hitting levels of diversity America had fifty years ago, and America has been made of statistically significant communities with distinctive origins for hundreds of years, and this in a colonizing country where there is no historically continuous monoculture. Historically, people tend to become dicks to the “Other” among them when faced with hardship, and much of American history reflects that sort of thing, but also its aftermath and attempts to heal.
Diverse and defiantly distinctive communities formed and persisted because that was how people got by and found support and could make their way, admittedly often because opportunities to assimilate, into whatever soup of dimly remembered pan-European customs that passes for a privileged culture here, were intentionally blocked. Yet even if the reasons for them are shameful, they are real and important, and the American dialogue on race simply cannot be color-blind even when well-meaning. Instead, it has to be a dance, where people of goodwill celebrate both differences and similarities and do not set groups above one another but also do not pretend they don’t exist.
I wish more Americans would understand that our approach rarely translates well, and for fuck’s sake I wish we had fewer people who were stuck in the bad old days where reconciliation and healing were very much not priorities. That said, I also wish that people from countries with a very different cultural and historical experience would not assume that their countries have shit figured out, when a lot of it simply boils down to “we don’t have many people with darker skin shades here.”
I think it’s very important to face the issue and not be blind about it. But it should be faced by acknowledging “we separate people based on their skin shade and we should give efforts to stop doing that”.
Because I think it’s pretty much self-explanatory that separation on purely ethnicity/looks is not constructive where people are artificially treated as if they were different even though they’re not. I think the damage clearly outweighs here.
Justifying racism by saying ‘this is what we always did and it worked like that’ is not the right way forward imo as we can’t be stuck in the past and make the same mistakes that could be successfully improved.
Of course this can’t be changed overnight but I think it’s important to start somewhere as I think no one wants to live in such unfair system like this. I haven’t said other countries aren’t affected by this but at least here in Germany it feels like it’s not being done to the extent like in America based on any purely ethnicity difference like skin, eye or hair appearance.
They’re not justifying racism, they’re explaing how the US has gotten to where it is today and why people act as they do. The culture here regarding it is different compared to most parts of Europe, and people generally are trying very much to combat these issues. But as this is a deeply cultural and historical undertaking in the US, a lot of change - cultural, political, or otherwise - will happen very slowly and will not always appear progressive. Despite recent events, the US has generally - though not always - been making small steps in the right direction here. Seit du Deutsch bist, weißt du, Fortschritt ist kompliziert.
Because I think it’s pretty much self-explanatory that separation on purely ethnicity/looks is not constructive where people are artificially treated as if they were different even though they’re not. I think the damage clearly outweighs here.
Justifying racism by saying ‘this is what we always did and it worked like that’ is not the right way forward imo as we can’t be stuck in the past and make the same mistakes that could be successfully improved.
What I’m trying to get at is that while appearance is not any kind of enlightened reason for distinct communities to have arisen, through accidents of history and genetics they did, and they are still relevant and appreciated by the people who are part of them. The color terminology is shorthand that acknowledges history. It’s not “justifying racism” to accept that in many places your ethnic background, especially if visible, means that certain experiences will have been more or less common for you. You can engage in this, even light heartedly, in good faith and as a way to understand your neighbors better, and indeed to think of them as your friends and neighbors instead of “Other.” People who are trying to do right by their fellow Americans are not using it to “separate,” but acknowledging that separation gave rise to proud, distinct communities and there’s no value in snuffing that out. The dialogue can be a way to unite us.
I believe we can agree that using visible “racial” markers to treat someone as less valuable than someone else is disturbing and evil, and still sadly common. I’m just saying that it’s not the mere use of the terms, or creating media that acknowledges them that results in the continuation of racism. Hell, in some ways, refusing to acknowledge differences gives a person with bad intent the license to settle on a single definition of what it means to be a “proper” American and to decide that anyone who doesn’t act the right way is less valuable: “I didn’t refuse to hire him because he’s black, but because he dresses and speaks differently. All he has to do is be exactly like me and I’d be more than happy to hire him!” (coughJDVancecoughcough)
Kid, you are nothing short of adorable.
How long were the Nazis in power in Germany? About ten years, fifteen? 1930’s to the Mid-1940’s? During how much of that time were Jews discriminated against, subjugated and slaughtered? Even if it started on day one, fifteen years is a fraction of one human lifetime. How would you describe the relationship between ethnic Germans and Jews today, given that little incident 80 years ago? Any grudges or awkwardness there?
Now I want you to imagine it was allowed to go on for a century, followed by another century of “the law says we’re merely allowed to treat you as a second-class citizen now, so get to the back of the fucking bus.”
Segregation in the United States lasted long enough for separate dialects of English to form. Turns out that wounds that took generations to carve are taking generations to heal. Imagine that for a moment.
Segregation in the United States lasted long enough for separate dialects of English to form.
dude, european jews were segregated so long that new languages formed
The black plague was, in part, blamed on European Jews poisoning the town wells haha
I think I have to point out, that the Nazis weren’t the only ones discriminating against and slaughtering Jews in Europe. There’s a long history of that, going back centuries. Ever heard of the cruscades for example? They didn’t limit themselves to killing non-Christian only in the holy lands. The Nazis were just the ones who did the killings on an industrial scale. But their reasoning for doing it goes way, way back. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Jews
This doesn’t excuse anything the Nazis did, or any form of discrimination, but I just feel it’s very dishonest to limit our view of anti-semitism in Germany (and Europe in general) to a fifteen year period, when it’s definitely been there a lot longer.
The Jews have been discriminated against and slaughtered for CENTURIES. Herr Hitler was just one of the many, many leaders who committed genocide. They’ve been segregated since forever. This wasn’t just 15-year booboo.
And don’t get me started on Leopold II and the Dutch and British empires.
…Great job, Europe?
I watched a TV show called ‘Justified: City Primeval’ - it’s not very good, but something I found weird was how often the characters mentioned each other’s race I’m from the UK, so maybe it was just badly written, or maybe Americans do actually talk like that.
White Americans feel about black people and other minorities roughly how Germans feel about Muslims. And I have to say, Germans do not like Muslims.
I guess Germans feel about Muslims the same way that Muslims feel about homosexuals or atheists.
*Extremist Muslims.
Yanno, like extremist Christians.
In how many Christian countries can you get executed for being gay?
The Germans refuse to admit they’re treating Muslims the way they used to treat the Jews.
Unfortunately many Germans do have problems with migrants/Muslims which I don’t understand. I have nothing against Islam being the biggest religion here.
But my question was particularly referring to that divide based on pure ethnicity because who you call “black people” are exactly as American as who you call “white people” with the only difference being having a different darkness of skin that doesn’t even have a determined line at which point someone is considered “white” and at what point someone is considered “black”.
The German equivalent would be if we divided Germans on whether they had bright blond or darker blond hair.
It’s not quite the same as being a migrant group that brought a different culture from a different country. I guess the American equivalent was if they didn’t want Mexican migrants because they’re Muslim.
But my question was particularly referring to that divide based on pure ethnicity because who you call “black people” are exactly as American as who you call “white people” with the only difference being having a different darkness of skin that doesn’t even have a determined line at which point someone is considered “white” and at what point someone is considered “black”.
So the short of it is that the wealthy classes in colonial North America created this divide to make white people feel better about keeping slaves from Africa even though they converted to Christianity. That’s it, it’s all a ruse by the ultra rich. However, the ruse has continued for so long that even after racism “ended” (it absolutely hasn’t) the system is very much racist, and that aside it’s just baked into the North American consciousness now. Being black or white or Hispanic is part of one’s identity and in many cases community.
It’s not quite the same as being a migrant group that brought a different culture from a different country.
Many minority groups in America do have different cultures than the white majority, though it’s not quite as big as the difference between Germans and Muslims. For example there are many Hispanic people whose main language is Spanish rather than English, and some blakc people have their own dialect.
Finally I want to add that despite all these details the crux of the issue is xenophobia. That’s why the things Americans say about minorities in general are very similar to the things Germans say about Muslims. Fundamentally it’s the same thing, and Germans and other Europeas will have to deal with many of the same issues America is dealing with now (to a lesser extent though, because of the lack of slavery)
No, the German equivalent would be if you divided Germans on whether they have light skin or dark skin. Are your Middle-Eastern immigrants not German? Your Romani? If they’re citizens of your country now, they are your countrymen, fullstop.
I feel like you’re very close to understanding America in your last paragraph though. For us, nearly every American is from a migrant group that brought a different culture from a different country. There’s only like 1% of the continent’s native population left. A Black American’s experiences are fundamentally different to a White American, or a Latino American, or an Eastern European American, because they all grew up with a different culture to one another. There is no real “baseline” American culture, as much as some angry White Americans would have you believe.
Mention of religion is also very uncommon in Germany. If someone isn’t wearing something like a cross chain, a kippa or a hijab, their religion often goes completely unnoticed in daily German life. It’s mostly irrelevant and ppl only discover it, if someone asks for halal/kosher options at a restaurant or so.
Are you sure? Because to my knowledge most Muslims in Germany are Middle Eastern and therefore quite easy to distinguish from the white Germans around them.
FWIW, there’s plenty of people with a similar colour skin who aren’t Muslim. India, for example, has a population of nearly 1.5 billion.
Unless someone tells you, or has some obvious sign, it’s bad form to assume someone’s religion from how they look.
Indians don’t look Middle Eastern, though; they look Indian. They’re a very different kind of brown. And either way do racist Germans really care enough to make that distinction? For all they know Muslims are brown people from the Middle East no?
Pakistanis, Bangladeshis and people from Afghanistan look the same as many Indians and most are absolutely Muslim.
That’s my point - you can’t tell someone’s religion just by skin colour.
That’s funny, I’m an American who literally argued with a German why Schwarze Pete (Black Pete) being a thing in the Netherlands, a country that heavily dealt in the slave trade, serving as a servant for Santa, and encouraging a form a black face… maybe a little racist?
Germans really like to analyze American politics, but mention nuclear power or Palestine and you see there’s a lot more in common than different.
I’ve never understood why Americans want to come over and tell us it’s “racist” to dress up as a character that happens to look too much like an African in their eyes
For me the interest in American society comes from the feeling that America is the center of the earth. Not only is 99% of the content that I consume as a gen-z from America but I also grew up being told America is the best and most powerful country in the world.
America feels like the core of our Western society but the fact that it’s still an entire ocean away I think is what makes many people curious about it more than other countries cause it’s such a big deal and influence but we can’t quite reach or control it which upsets some people cause they don’t agree on certain things with the US but can’t control it (hope that makes somewhat sense).
I also grew up being told America is the best and most powerful country in the world.
Lol, when I was in China, I was told China was the best, then I immigrated to the US and was told the USA was the best. Seems like just nationalism.
It’s a complicated issue in the United States because of the history. Lots of countries did slavery, but at the point the United States did it, science was starting to spark into its modern form and one idea that “seemed good at the time” was pursuing superior genes.
That … went really really really sideways and basically became a justification for continued slavery on the premise that white people were just better and they were doing the inferior black people a favor. Basically while the rest of the world was going “maybe slavery isn’t good” the US was like “slavery is the humane thing to do, because science!”
Even after shit like that gets disproven people still tend to believe some amount of it (look at the antivax movement). So, even after the slaves were freed, they and their children were looked down upon by the culture. Many black people remained uneducated, financially bankrupt, etc. The culture especially in the south fought really hard to keep it that way for a looonnngggggg time.
That kind of formed a counter culture of its own, the “gang” culture. Which isn’t all that different from the counter culture you see that came from prohibition and the moonshiners and such … basically outlaws fighting the man, looked down upon, etc
So basically there are several main US cultures, Northern East White, Midwestern White, West Coast White, Southern White, Black, and the Appalachian White/redneck culture that descends from a mix of the moonshine runners, rural farmers, coal miners, and white southern culture.
Black people of course have multiple cultures even within the US but it’s all kind of lumped into this messy “black culture” thing. Some black people I’ve met love the black gangster with the gold chains imagery and hold it up as something great and the “true black culture”, others see it as ridiculous and trashy.
Calling these other cultures white is also intellectually dishonest as the entire US is a melting pot and the cultures of those regions were not formed by a single skin color … but I’m using “white” for the purposes of the contrast …
Anyways, black people just kind of stand out so they’re an easy target… and they have been targeted for a very long time fueled (at least in part) by that long ruled scientifically ridiculous idea that they’re inferior.
Add in the extra spice that the Appalachian subculture is angry about being tied in with the other white cultures despite being screwed over by the government a lot (not to the extent black people were, but still badly) … and you’ve basically got the mess that is America in 2025.
There’s a mix of justifiably mad people on both sides, outright racists, and people that serve to benefit from the conflict never ending politically.
(Perspective of a white guy originally from Appalachia that has seen a fair bit of the country and world now … and largely no longer agrees with the Appalachians politically … but is trying his best to explain a very complicated and touchy subject without writing a novel or making a bunch of people angry … your collective grace is appreciated)
