• moxyy@lemmy.world
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    1 day ago

    I got banned from memes@lemmy.ml for basically saying the same exact thing. Apparently there’s a lot of Chinese propaganda on this platform.

    • boonhet@sopuli.xyz
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      14 hours ago

      Kinda doesn’t work so good if you step down 2 or 3 orders of magnitude with the total amount of people killed between frame 1 and 2.

    • T00l_shed@lemmy.world
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      15 hours ago

      Is it? We’re happy to shit on Obama and Biden, for all the awful stuff they have done, but if you rightfully call out the shit any of those other people do, we get banned from .ml coms.

      • DarkCloud@lemmy.world
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        2 days ago

        Of course, the CIA and US Government does actually do propaganda campaigns. Whether via things like the Voice Of America radio station. Or like

        Domestic Anti-Communist stuff:

        Operation Mockingbird bird: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Mockingbird,

        The Crusade for Cultural Freedom.
        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crusade_for_Freedom

        The Congress for Cultural Freedom. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Congress_for_Cultural_Freedom

        The Red Scare. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Scare

        More general fuckery:

        Lavender Scare. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lavender_scare

        The suppression of the PRISM information program. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PRISM

        Suppression of wartime massacres: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mukaradeeb_wedding_party_massacre

        The assassin of Fred Hampton (American communist)
        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assassination_of_Fred_Hampton

        The killing of MLK (American Socialist).
        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assassination_of_Martin_Luther_King_Jr.

        And that’s just a small portion of the US government propaganda campaigns they’ve run ON AMERICAN CITIZENS AND CULTURE. Not including things like the outlawing of Anarchism, or whatever the hell people like Allen Dulles and George Bush Senior were up to…

        …and all of this is before even asking about overseas propaganda campaigns.

        So yes, the CIA has definitely been heavily involved in curbing American opinions, and massively suppressing support for Communism and Socialism in America.

        American Free speech - but only to an extent, after that you’ll have to deal with government interference.

        • copingwithelmons@lemmy.world
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          2 days ago

          While they whole heartedly suck, it doesn’t mean they’re responsible for everything that sucks.

          Tankies don’t look at the shitty things China and Russia do.

          • DarkCloud@lemmy.world
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            2 days ago

            Yes, and anti-communists tend to overlook the shitty things Capitalism and the US government do.

            The critique cuts both ways. I don’t think either side has much of a solution… But right now - in the west - it’s clear that too much Socialism is not the problem.

            The West is Cappoed out right now. Kind of tired of it.

            Hey kid, wanna buy us a new Data Center?

            No thanks Sir, please leave me alone.

            • copingwithelmons@lemmy.world
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              2 days ago

              anti-communists tend to overlook the shitty things Capitalism and the US government do

              I don’t think either side has much of a solution

              You are conflating not being a tankie with being an anticommunist.

              Being a communist shouldn’t stop you from ciritquing your own state. A healthy communist state allows for open critique and discussion of what works and what doesn’t. Otherwise you risk autocracy.

              And I would hazard calling China and Russia communist states. Russia doesn’t even call itself communist anymore. And China is a one party autocracy with a free market. They’re only communists in name.

              • schipelblorp@sh.itjust.works
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                2 days ago

                What’s your definition of communist? For me it implies a centrally planned economy to the exclusion of any free market and is definitely at great risk to fall into autocracy. I think that kind of project is doomed from the start, so I wouldn’t call identify myself as a communist.

                • Eldritch@piefed.world
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                  2 days ago

                  Those are leninist/Maoist. If we’re being generous we could call them aspirationally communist. But not actually communist.

                  2 defining criteria for communism is being stateless. Ie not having an governing state elected or otherwise. Definitely not having a large hierarchical unanswerable centralized government. And the other being classlessness. Something that the large central politburos preclude.

                  The one thing Leninism shares in the most asinine and negative way with communism. In the actual vision of communism, Marx and others theorized that the workers of the factory, etc. Should own the factory. Social ownership. However, Leninism warps and twists it negatively in that the state owns everything, not the workers. They may claim that the workers are the state. But that’s bullshit as can easily be seen by any time they put down a citizen revolt. Roll out the tanks, etc. Like Tiananmen Square.

                • copingwithelmons@lemmy.world
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                  2 days ago

                  I am not sure. I’ve never given it a concrete thought. Communism as a whole is very nebulous. I particularly like the socialist aspects and the welfare for all goals of communism. I like the dream of not having to work to survive.

                  But I do not like the planned economy aspect of it. I haven’t seen anyone do planned economies well. This includes non communist countries that tried it. There’s something to say about how it is impossible to create a complex web of plans that accurately and adequately account for humanity’s ever-changing needs and wants. But economics is fairly complex and I have little authority over the subject matter to say anything with confidence.

                  Basically - Freemarket, multi-socialist-only party system, with four strong pillars of democracy acting as checks and balances, with welfare for all.

                  I don’t identify as a communist in the conventional sense or any other particular label per say. But I do lean left.

              • DarkCloud@lemmy.world
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                2 days ago

                I’m not really interested in defining them or getting into that kind of argument here (not being a Communist, I don’t want to defend it).

                …but I believe Market Socialism is a thing. Capitalism is (in Marxist doctrine) considered a stage of Communism, and that these discussions often overlook Vietnam…

                …Vietnam also has a system of Market Socialism, they’ve just almost resolved homelessness and have no housing crisis because they have a land redistribution system for anyone who wants to go into farming.

                … so like, whilst I don’t like Tankies AT ALL (they all demand you read a specific 1000 book list before even having a discussion)… I do think anti-communists are also annoying and often under cooked/biased on historical facts.

                To use an analogy being anti-tankie often comes across as basically saying we need to reconsider what the alt-right are saying during the Trump era… And exceedingly often comes down to “a tankie once called me a name I don’t like”.

                In short - in comes across as reactionary (rather than thoughtful/legitmate). I don’t like anti-tankies because they’re having a reactionary response rather than just going “those guys are dicks, but I understand within a Capitalist society”

                Instead anti-tankies go, “those guys are dicks for calling me that of all people, I’m going to form a club to complain about it… Even though billionaire crony Capitalism is really the problem right now”.

                So yeah, I don’t like either of them, but I understand uptight commies better than I do the reaction to them. I can hide and block the commies pretty easily.

                • copingwithelmons@lemmy.world
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                  2 days ago

                  so like, whilst I don’t like Tankies AT ALL (they all demand your read a specific 1000 book list before even having a discussion)… I do think anti-communists are also annoying and often under cooked/biased on historical facts.

                  I agree.

                  …Vietnam also has a system of Market Socialism, they’ve just almost resolved homelessness and have no housing crisis because they have a land redistribution system for anyone who wants to go into farming.

                  Always assumed they did what china did. They realized that the tool to stay in power was stability and growth, so they incentivized development on the local and national level for climbing the party ladder and good boy points. But it’s nice to see them actually follow through with the ideals as well.

                  In short - in comes across as reactionary (rather than thoughtful/legitmate).

                  I understand how that can be tiring. I’ve stopped talking to anyone who purports any fascist or anti-socialist ideals. They will never listen. They are too comfortable with the power they hold to reconsider. On lemmy, I have come across far too many tankies who confuse me to no end. They come off as religious nuts who pretend to like the same ideals I do. They are in my opinion just as worse as the anti-communists.

                  I don’t want to be associated with them. And I think the political spectrum is far too complicated to neatly divide people into simple categories. But it’s easier to do and who has the time to actually get to know strangers online. So, as a rule, I am against any tankie or fascist.

        • mojofrododojo@lemmy.world
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          2 days ago

          American Free speech - but only to an extent, after that you’ll have to deal with government interference.

          solid list. reality check: do you think this kind of stuff happens exclusively in the US?

          do you think other countries aren’t trying to influence the rest of the world?

          When russia gives someone tea with polonium as sweetener?

          I agree, the US has a ton of horrid shit in its history, and we don’t seem to be improving. but there’s a lot of space between “at some point or another, almost all nations do wretched and awful shit. because they’re ALL made of humans”

          Yeah, the CIA is bad. So is the KG-FSB and Mossad and MI6 and everyone else.

          • DarkCloud@lemmy.world
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            2 days ago

            All states have propaganda campaigns against specific things/areas of discussion.

            America (like most western “liberal” democracies) heavily targets leftist causes, such as Communism, Anarchism, Socialism, Peace movements, and climate change activists.

            Many of which threaten to protest big oil companies, the millitary industrial complex, domestic spying on citizens, big polluters, industries that want to under pay workers, tech billionaires and AI data centers.

            As a Westerner I find that list of areas of concern and suppression to be much more representative of things I want addressed by democracy than I do the existence of tankies, communists, and socialists.

            So my gripe is about proportionality. The powers that be would prefer we focus on tankies and the ills of soviet era communism - because that makes us divided and focused there rather than on modern corporate Capitalism and its corruption of our democracy.

            That would be my reality check.

            • mojofrododojo@lemmy.world
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              The powers that be would prefer we focus on tankies and the ills of soviet era communism -

              lol.

              I never consider the ills of soviet era communism until tankies show up trying to convince me they had a utopia.

              I spend absolutely zero time pontificating about mao, or stalin, or communism, or collectivism, any of it, until some asshole slinks in and starts talking shit about ‘the west’ as if their own side never Holodomor’d a bunch of innocents the way we trail-of-tears’d people here.

              you don’t think the people living in ‘the east’ lived some kind of perfect, ideal lives, do you? that would be silly. why would we expect it on either side?

              we’re all fucking humans. none of us is better than any of the others based on geography or ideology, and a lot of us are wretched assholes when we get into a position of authority.

              uniquely western? pfft

          • DarkCloud@lemmy.world
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            2 days ago

            Well, I’d need to be strapped to a bed in a Canadian mental home with a steady drip of LSD, and a tape on loop to forget CIA_chatbot… As the CIA discovered during their horrific MK-Ultra experiments on mental patients.

            • CIA_chatbot@lemmy.world
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              2 days ago

              Hey in our defense, the researchers were also doing a shitload of LSD at the time… I think. My memory is a bit fuzzy

      • ivan@piefed.social
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        2 days ago

        Hey, there’s also “CNN talking mfer”. I was called that for recalling my literal personal experiences of interacting with Russians years before full scale war.

            • deft@lemmy.wtf
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              15 hours ago

              No and it’s fucking stupid to say it is because they’re both yellow. That’s probably more racist than the image.

              This is the origin. Which is from Chinese social media. It only became known in the west because China banned this imagery. So now posting him as Winnie the Pooh is directly a mockery of China’s strict information control and running around calling it racist is dumb.

              You’re reaching for this one.

              • FlyingCircus@lemmy.world
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                1 hour ago

                I’m going to share this Reddit comment about a Dutch tradition where people used to wear blackface.

                https://www.reddit.com/r/interestingasfuck/s/CdonBFsbVJ

                To be short, it doesn’t really matter what the original intent was. There are too many parallels to racist tropes, and now we have people who insist that it’s not racist because they actually want to do dog whistles. So now this thing that maybe didn’t start as a racist thing, now definitely is.

    • CIA_chatbot@lemmy.world
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      2 days ago

      Aww man, I put a TON of thought into my propaganda. At least give me some constructive criticism instead of just not liking it

  • BigDiction@lemmy.world
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    2 days ago

    The downside of creating political shitposts in this community is feeling obligated to read the parapgraphs on paragraphs of seemingly serious political theory that no one asked for.

        • Brave Little Hitachi Wand@feddit.uk
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          2 days ago

          I had the same oddly sarcastic impulse - “oh, brave take”. But then I noticed that’s only because of how stridently leftist this space is. Then I wandered away, too unbothered to even finish replying

      • CheesyFox@lemmy.sdf.org
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        2 days ago

        The problem with both anarchism and communism is that while they can work at the smaller scales, at the bigger ones they become more and more vulnerable. Both can pretty easily devolve into plain authoritarianism. I’m a big fan of anarchy as a concept, but i don’t see how it could work on a geopolitical scale.

        • rockerface🇺🇦@lemmy.cafe
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          I’d say anarchism has more self-checks against authoritarianism compared to capitalism or “communism” of the Soviet or Chinese variety. In the end, it’s all about reducing the reliance on hierarchies and there’s no single right way to do it.

          • CheesyFox@lemmy.sdf.org
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            Getting rid of hierarchies certainly helps, yeah… The problem is though, that a political power without a hierarchy will inherently lose to a hierarchical one at least in terms of military power, which is geopoliticianeese for “i’m free to take by whomever!”

            • Nola@piefed.zip
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              I mean this is sort of backdooring itself into the trove of arguments and theory around why a communist revolution has to be an international liberation movement, and why you need a revolutionary vanguard cause you can’t hope to achieve communism while capitalist imperialism is still around.

              Which is precisely why the question of socialism/communism or Anarchism and how to achieve it goes beyond just seizing control of the state or reorganizing production and the relationship with the state within national borders. It’s also became heavily about surviving and overcoming an international system of capitalist power that has both the material incentive and institutional capacity to prevent those alternatives from succeeding.

              • CheesyFox@lemmy.sdf.org
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                Except even the world revolution can’t solve the issue of degradation into a plain-old authoritarianism. Speaking in analogies, both communism and anarchism, as geopolitical regimes, create a power vacuum. A sterile room, ridden of all the bacteria, but neither of them has an answer on how to keep the room sterile after without having to overthrow yet another government.

                […] It’s also became heavily about surviving and overcoming an international system of capitalist power […]

                As i said in my initial comment, both ideologies can work on smaller (than a geopolitical one) scales. Anarchism is already basically intrinsic to any friend/family group in some capacity. Help efforts, no matter whether they were started by ideological anarchists, exist, and nobody bats an eye about that. That’s just not what i’m discussing here. I’m discussing the realism of a communist and/or anarchist state.

            • rockerface🇺🇦@lemmy.cafe
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              2 days ago

              Hierarchy does not inherently translate to military power. Anarchism is simply a different form of organization, having enough people/resources/power isn’t dependent on specific form of organization.

              • CheesyFox@lemmy.sdf.org
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                No it doesn’t, but military is authoritarian by design, it will be much less effective without a strict hierarchy.

                Case in point — greek polises. Each of them individually weren’t quite anarchist per se, but how they interacted with each other, and how they stopped being independent entities in the end is very illustrative of what happens to geopolitical entities without an established hierarchy.

        • NoneOfUrBusiness@fedia.io
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          The only implementation of communism that was actually tried long-term is Marxist-Leninism (aka Stalinism), which is both uniquely authoritarian and basically heretical. Everything else was crushed either by the capitalist West or by the USSR itself, so really the jury is out on what a more normal attempt at socialism would actually look like.

          • CheesyFox@lemmy.sdf.org
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            Yes, communism is yet to be ever implemented in reality, but i see no problem with mentally evaluating the idea before implementing it. After all, do you jump off the roof before looking down, or you look down before jumping? I’m sticking with the second one, and if you’re not, i suggest you call your local suicide prevention hotline.

            Communism, no matter the flavor, will anyway be laying somewhere on a spectrum between centralization and decentralization, so it will be vulnerable in any case. If you can imagine an idea where it isn’t, i wholeheartedly ought you to share it.

          • CheesyFox@lemmy.sdf.org
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            2 days ago

            Small divided groups are inherently easier to subjugate. The saying “Divide and conquer” exists for a reason.

  • saarth@lemmy.world
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    2 days ago

    Also I like how American leaders set the bar for their leaders at either developing countries or failed/failing countries.

    Sure Biden is better than whoever is running Pakistan, but dude you’re the US of A #1 ever in the history of the universe, maybe have better leaders/policies than Norway or Finland?

    • technocrit@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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      15 hours ago

      Sure Biden is better than whoever is running Pakistan

      Sure, casual racism and imperialism get upvoted in liberal circles.

    • saarth@lemmy.world
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      2 days ago

      Sure Stalin and Mao committed crimes against humanity, they were managing a country through massive revolutions, but surely Bill Clinton can do better than bombing kids for oil in a country that most of his citizens can’t point on a map.

      • saarth@lemmy.world
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        1 day ago

        If it wasn’t clear this was like a hyperbolic joke. Clinton is an example, but the point is almost every American leader has done evil shit despite America not being in any crisis since ww2 as far as I can tell.

      • mojofrododojo@lemmy.world
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        lot of presidents bombed places for oil. I don’t recall clinton doing it. certainly put troops in somalia…

        can you give an example or is this just hyperbole?

      • Doomsider@lemmy.world
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        1 day ago

        Stalin 6-20 million people dead.

        Mao 40-70 million people dead.

        Bill Clinton about 2,000 people dead.

        The US kills far more people through sanctions than military action. It is estimated that US policy has lead to the death of around 40 million in the last 50 years.

    • DarkCloud@lemmy.world
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      Technically Xi’s stuff is Crimes Against Humanity. Americas is more massive, historical, and ongoing War Crimes in the middle east… But both countries ramped up after 9/11, and are anti arab and anti Muslim in their victim selections. So… there’s that…

      …I tell ya, the US quietly going into Syria had some stank on it. We focus on Iraq and Afghanistan, but boy the list of investors who were pushing for Syria… Here’s some from Genie Energy, the main oil concern:

      Genie Energy’s Strategic advisory board is composed of: Dick Cheney since 2009 (former vice president of the United States),[3] Rupert Murdoch (media mogul and chairman of News Corp), James Woolsey (former CIA director), Larry Summers (former head of the US Treasury), Michael Steinhardt, Jacob Rothschild,[4][5] and Mary Landrieu, former United States Senator from Louisiana.

      Syria (and the oil rich Golan Heights) is right next to Israel. So the whole thing had uber Capitalist millitary industrial finger prints all over it, and it was done pretty quietly. People just didn’t really notice the blood for oil that time. I imagine Israel annexed the whole region with Americas backing.

      It’s good to be informed and kind of natural people will be more aware of systems they’re in and close to than they will be of systems from 1950s USSR or somewhere overseas that speaks another language.

    • zenitsu@sh.itjust.works
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      They’re not all “wAr cRiMinAls” but only sane people care about the actual meaning of words, right?

    • Napster153@lemmy.world
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      It’s only bad when the war criminal doesn’t emotionally validate them specifically as an individual.

      • [deleted]@piefed.world
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        Not to mention Treebeard discovered he was wrong to avoid getting involved once he understood what was going on.

      • schipelblorp@sh.itjust.works
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        No, enlightened centrists have representation.

        I’m a socialist in the United States and AOC is gonna vote for Hakeem Fucking Jeffries for Speaker, so who is really on my side at this moment?

        But in the context of the US vs China, it seems like people are always explicitly making me pick a side. Almost all the China-bashing is motivated by wanting to keep the US hegemonic, and every time I say, “Hey, why are we saying China shouldn’t rule the world but never challenging why we allow the United States to rule the world?” I get called a tankie.

        • copingwithelmons@lemmy.world
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          2 days ago

          It really does feel like AOC is a career politician with too deep ties with super pacs that fund most of the “moderates” in democratic party.

          Please vote her out as well.

          • Nola@piefed.zip
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            The system disciplines everyone is the fuller answer.

            And AOC is actually a very good case study in how this happens even if you aren’t explicitly bought and sold

            Cause in fact she is not deeply rooted in corporate super pacs or propped up heavily by conditioned billionaire money. The popular narrative that seems to dominate.

            Instead she was disciplined by the system itself and the people she has to work with inside that system and the systems of influence in and outside of the government.

            So replacing her is not going to be the core fix for this problem. The next person will face the same pressures and the same disciplining forces.

            If the DSA had 100 members in congress things would be different, but even then certain mechanisms of discipline will never fully go away until a more fundamental change in the relationship of the state and who it serves and how it is controlled changes.

            • copingwithelmons@lemmy.world
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              Instead she was disciplined by the system itself and the people she has to work with inside that system and the systems of influence in and outside of the government.

              You are right, it’s more the culture of the institution she’s a part of. That however doesn’t excuse it. She has the chance, with the new wave to stand with the right kind of people.

              The next person will face the same pressures and the same disciplining forces.

              Not if you vote the moderates out. I know it’s more complicated than this, but trump has set a fire in motion that might not burn again very soon.

              This time I saw that wyoming, Montana, Nebraska and Idaho had independents running against the republicans for the senate. They were all blue collar working class military veterans. They had close races. I am not familiar with their elections but it seems like the people want a change, but they don’t want to vote for the same old guys who are supported by corporates and outside interests. This is the perfect time for change.

          • NoOutlines@sopuli.xyz
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            2 days ago

            Yes let’s eat ourselves guys, it’s the only solution am I right fellow comrades? Quickly let’s fuck ourselves as hard as we can, it’s ideological purity that people need, not results!

            • copingwithelmons@lemmy.world
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              It’s not ideological purity. I don’t have anything against her, but if she votes Jefferies then the blue wave will have little effect imo.

              If america had an actual multi-party system this wouldn’t have been a problem in the first place. You get your preferred candidate and I get my preferred one, most likely in a coalition together.

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                2 days ago

                So you think if Jeffreys gets to keep his job, and bearing in mind I agree with you that he is a fucking waterproof teabag, you think that this entire election cycle and all of the new people brought into congress, will have “little effect”?

                I mean it would be a blow, but don’t you think that this kind of hyperbolic overreaction is unhelpful? Like, if he does, are you gonna give up? I’m not in a competition to be the most leftist, I want to push our wins and recover from our losses.

                They way you talk is defeatist.

                • copingwithelmons@lemmy.world
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                  Okay, you are right. All is not lost. I am not trying to be defeatist, there will be other chances.

                  I just think it’s rare to see so many non career politicians win elections. It’s a good moment to shore up and solidify that base before the two party rotating system rings back in.

          • schipelblorp@sh.itjust.works
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            We have a real problem in that it’s relatively easy for establishment candidates to give off progressive signals and for the mainstream media to never challenge them, so people will happily pose as progressives and then go right back to the establishment.

            Look to Susan Collins for a mirrored example of that. It’s very effective.

            That said, I think we’re going to have a lot of angry primary voters in 2028 if things keep going how they’re going.

            • FiredFloridaCop@lemmy.world
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              2 days ago

              No True Progressive

              If someone is a Progressive 99% of the time and fucks up 1% of the time, tHeYrE eStAbLiShMeNt NeOlIbS!!!

              With this much purity testing, it’s no wonder the left has no ground to stand on in the US - the rug keeps getting pulled by people further left of whatever platform they’re on.

              Meanwhile the conservatives and fascists are patting each other on the back for putting aside their differences.

              • Katana314@lemmy.world
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                2 days ago

                I know it can sometimes be hard to see someone’s exact colors, but Schumer has voted in favor of ICE funding and Israel Defense spending consistently.

              • schipelblorp@sh.itjust.works
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                2 days ago

                Getting pissed off at voting for a house speaker with a history of opposing progressive causes after a once-in-century change election isn’t purist pique.

                Dems have a chance to redefine the party into something people want to vote for. If we can’t do it, we’re giving racist Christofascism another shot at a permanent majority. We have a lot of work to do at every level and we can’t do it with a corpodem at the top of the hiearchy.

                • FiredFloridaCop@lemmy.world
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                  Getting pissed off at voting for a house speaker with a history of opposing progressive causes after a once-in-century change election isn’t purist pique.

                  It is when you try to argue that AOC is No True Progressive.

                  Dems have a chance to redefine the party into something people want to vote for. If we can’t do it, we’re giving racist Christofascism another shot at a permanent majority. We have a lot of work to do at every level and we can’t do it with a corpodem at the top of the hiearchy.

                  Cool soapbox, but I never said anything different; you’re acting like I disagree with you here.

        • protist@retrofed.com
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          I’ve heard a number of progressive reps say they’ve had positive conversations with Jeffries regarding the House policy agenda for the upcoming session. I’m interested to hear more. To Jeffries’ credit, he’s only been leader for 2 years in the minority, maybe let’s see how he does with a majority.

          Have not heard the same about Schumer. We’re all ready for that guy to not be in charge

          • schipelblorp@sh.itjust.works
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            Just trust me, bro is not what I want to stake the future of the country on.

            If Jeffries is Speaker and doesn’t deliver on progressive demands, the political situation is going to become very unstable. Expect more Democratic primary challenges and wilder swings in the electorate as people desperately look for someone who will finally actually do something, and maybe some solutions will be tried outside the ballot box.

            We’re sitting on a powder keg.

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              I anticipate the next 2 years are going to be rough. I would not be surprised if the Trump Admin starts arresting legislators.

              As far as the Democratic Party, I anticipate the progressive momentum from this election will carry over into 2028. What we’re witnessing is literally a generational shift, as all these 80 year olds finally start dying or losing power and Millennials are rapidly increasing their power in Congress

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            Isn’t Jefferies funded by the same super pacs that fund the other moderates? Things aren’t gonna change if he gets elected.

            Trump was a good wakeup call to ditch these guys.

  • DarkFuture@lemmy.world
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    Can’t tell you how many times these twats have called me a genocider.

    It used to be a pretty serious word, but these losers are working overtime stripping it of all its meaning by using it on everyone that disagrees with them.

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      I’ve been called a zionist genocider for pointing out mass-murder is evil. People are fucking NUTS!

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          The usual pattern: one, then two, then ten to defend the honor of Comrad Slaughterhouse and bury us all in bad-faith brigades.

    • CptOblivius@lemmy.world
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      I just respond I’m anti genocide, including, Russia’s kidnapping and trafficking Ukrainian children and China’s genocide of the Uyghars. It shuts them up or they immediately start defending them and then I call them genocides.

      • kolmaskommentoija@sopuli.xyz
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        You can use Tibet as well with the CCP propagandists, that gets them to say wild shit. And then you can call out them for being racist too!

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    Millions killed in purges and policy created in cults of personality.

    Yeah, need to make a whole identity sh*tting on imperfect democracies while touting systems that have always devolved into dictatorships.

    • DarkCloud@lemmy.world
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      Or you’re just not that familiar with Capitalist and Communist history.

      Killed by the British East India company famines in India and Bengal: 10 - 15 million (the company exported ALL the grain, even the grain farmers were paid with and living off. Gotta get those profits!).

      Killed by the Libertarian Congo Free State under King Leopald: 10 - 15 million (but the rubber business boomed).

      That’s 20 million to 30 million dead from Capitalism right there.

      Killed in the USSR Gulag system? 1.5 - 2 million. Most people survived the Gulag system (18 million went in, the majority walked out alive).

      Outside of that Communism had a lot of undesired and unintended famines largely contributed to by one conman scientist fabricating results to keep his job:

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trofim_Lysenko#Consequences_of_Lysenko’s_views

      Capitalism has in all likelihood intentionally killed waaay more people than Communism (just by the numbers)… And if you know the history, this becomes more obvious. This comment doesn’t even cover the many wars by Capitalist nations pushed and carried out in the name of profit.

      • kolmaskommentoija@sopuli.xyz
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        Killed in the USSR Gulag system? 1.5 - 2 million. Most people survived the Gulag system (18 million went in, the majority walked out alive).

        Others doing bad things, does not make you doing bad things any better. Do you really want to defend “only” around 2 million people dying, and 18 million more ending up in camps?!

        • DarkCloud@lemmy.world
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          It’s not really about that … I mean, we don’t live under communism, we live under the deadlier of the two systems.

          • kolmaskommentoija@sopuli.xyz
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            Well, then we get to the definitions of communism, because neither Soviet Union nor China under CCP have been marxist communists. “True communist state” would be owned by people, not people subjugated to become possessions of a dictator too. Capitalism fucking sucks, but I will rather take the social democratic system I live under now, than a dictator throwing innocent people into camps. (And that applies to the USA too, with their dollar-store government doing their best nazi impression right now.)

            Now, if only we could stop being such meek sheep, we could perhaps figure out a system that is not based on exploitation. But that would be not like Capitalist societies, nor anything like Soviet Union or China under CCP.

            • DarkCloud@lemmy.world
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              Sounds like you got to that, because you wanted to rant about it out of nowhere. I don’t really get why you’re doing it me. But whatever.

              • kolmaskommentoija@sopuli.xyz
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                I got to it, because you compared horrible systems, and claimed one to be communist, while it is not. Soviet Union and China under CCP have been, just slightly differently spiced versions of the same exploitation, that is behind capitalism too.

                • DarkCloud@lemmy.world
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                  No I didn’t. Where do I claim to be doing a comparison of horrible systems? Where do I claim one is communist and one is not. I didn’t even originate the thread we’re on. I certainly didn’t say anything about spiced versions of each other. I didn’t come up with these terms.

    • Nola@piefed.zip
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      Devolved?

      Which of the listed nations on the bottom were revolutions that overthrew functioning free and fair democratic systems?

        • Nola@piefed.zip
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          Cause you said they all devolved into dictatorships and that is factually inaccurate.

          Every example in the OP is from a revolution that occurred in response to an existing non-democratic, capitalist, authoritarian state.

          So the revolutions took over states that were in fact not democratic. This is not a moral judgement but a clarification of fact.

          Another clarification is the notion of “Have Always”

          Do you think those listed are the only examples?

          Care to explain the Paris Commune? Allende in Chile? The socialist republic in Spain? Arbenz in Guatemala? Lumumba and the pan african movement in Congo? Nicaragua? The PKI and Sukarmo in Indonesia? And then in East Timor? Just to name a few

          It is not a whataboutism to challenge your assertions of factual ignorance.